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{NATIVE NUTRITION}

Bread Dread: Are you Really Gluten Intolerant?

By I. N. Cognito

The following story is, unfortunately, true.

Before the 1950’s, most bakeries in Australia, indeed the world, ran 2 shifts of workers because the dough was fermented throughout the night, long and slow. That bread was made from plain, unbleached wheat flour, and now, seen in retrospect, was superior to most breads of today.

I would often visit our local bakery with my uncle, who home-delivered bread for many years. During the 50’s, the US-based bakery giant Tip Top came to Brisbane, and started to buy up all the small bakeries it could; other giants competed with them, meaning that in very quick time we had only 2 or 3 bakers in the entire city, ditto in all parts of Australia.

One of the very first actions these corporate bakers were to take was to introduce the fast loaf (3 hours from start to finish), effectively eliminating the need for half, or one entire shift, of their labour force. This was actually required by a new law called The Bread Act.

This seemingly innocuous cost-cutting decision would relentlessly impact and compromise the health of each and every bread lover since – that’s virtually everybody since the 50’s – and would cause countless deaths, bestow myriad miseries, as it continues to do. The first act of a major tragedy that still plays, everywhere, everyday.

Very basic bread that had once been fermented for a healthy 8 hours or more was now brewing in just 2 hours! Yeast levels were increased, accelerants and proving agents introduced. Glutens, starches and malts were not given the remotest opportunity to convert to their digestible potentials, in a sickly anti-nutrient-laden, gluepot stew. Breads are still made this way, even the so-called health breads!

Fast-made bread is one of the most destructive implementations into the modern diet. It has become normal fare, and poorly-prepared and poorly-digested wheat is the chief contributor to the current plague of “gluten-intolerance”, obesity, diabetes, candida diseases and many allergenic conditions.

Gluten (once properly fermented) is a wonderful vegetable protein. It is actually a mix of the two elastic proteins, gliadin and glutenin. So-called gluten-intolerant adults and kids are eating my long-ferment bread with amazement at, delight in, the taste, the clarity and the painless, satisfactory satiety.

Sure, be intolerant of gluten in its under-prepared, expedient form. It most certainly is toxic. Such sensitivity is wise and self-preserving, but do not condemn gluten and wheat via this premise. We are not gluten-intolerant; we are allergic to the accelerating haste of modern life!

Wheat is, yes, potentially one of the most highly allergenic foods on the planet, but like soya beans, converts to a truly great food once it is fermented long enough.

All current breads, pastas, pizzas, cakes, biscuits, and on and on and on, contain complex proteins which have not been given the requisite fermentation time to convert to their excellent, digestible alter-egos.
Wheat also contains a difficult starch and a highly allergenic maltose, but within that same complexity, when correctly fermented, there lies varied and splendid nutrients – 18 amino acids (proteins), complex carbohydrate (a super efficient source of energy), B vitamins, iron, zinc, selenium and magnesium, and maltase.

From a demon to a god in one ferment.

The catastrophic changes in bakery procedures were a disaster that went largely unnoticed in the 50’s, except by my baker/uncle and a few other observant souls. He became aware that from that fateful change onwards, many of his customers began to grow ill. Amy MacGrath made the same observation in her book “One Man’s Poison.”

Of course the 50’s also saw the introduction of mass pasteurisation of milk and other food perversions, so there were several developing culprits. This period marked the beginning of the end for bread and milk as healthy, nutritious staples, and signalled the onset of the demise of food in general.

Today, the absolute extreme of this perfidy is found in Hot Bread kitchens, which produce loaves of very toxic, allergy-inducing crud, in just 40 minutes from start of dough to baked finish!

Long Ferment Bread

The longer the ferment, the less yeast is required. Over time, even the smallest amount of yeast will slowly grow and spread throughout a dough. The addition of ginger powder (instead of sugar) to the original mix helps to create a strident growth network for even and healthy leavening to occur.

Sourdough leaven is a fine option to baker’s yeast, but bear in mind that sourdough is also yeast, also a leavening agent. It’s just that in sourdough the yeasts are attracted, gathered wild from the atmosphere.

Remember, whether you employ baker’s yeast or sourdough as the leaven, the actual dough fermenting time must be longer than 6 hours!

I have not only gluten-intolerants enjoying my wheat/granulated yeast bread, but also yeast-sensitive folk are also reporting no reaction – not 100% success of course, but enough to suggest that, just as proteins and starches transform in the long ferment process, the yeast positively alters also.

The tremendous upsurge in cases of gluten, carbohydrate and lactose sensitivity is a totally modern phenomena, and finds its origins in quick, economically convenient, and incorrect food preparation - forging a delusional, diversionary path that we have charted in just the last 50 years, far far away from traditional lines.

Bran is Bullshit!

Actually, far, far better to eat bullshit than bran! True.

Bran is the outer husk of any grain or seed, it is indigestible, and its high phytate content robs our bodies of nutrients, especially minerals, and stifles digestion. If we are eating well, we don’t need such gross fibrous brooms to “sweep out” our bowels.

Bran robs us of nutrients in another way also: Because bran is an irritant to the bowel, its radical stimulation of the peristaltic motion means that any foods accompanying the bran get shunted along far too rapidly in the bowel, severely restricting the crucial extraction of minerals and vitamins which would occur in a normal (slow) passage through the colon.

Not even to their pigs would the Chinese give bran, from any grain (rice included).

In 1542 England, the government-published “Dyetary of Health” stated “bread having too much bran is not laudable”. At that time, the rich ate plain bread, the poor ate the waste, the brown.

Bran is now lauded as a lifesaver, is present in so many of today’s foods. A huge market has been created for what was, for thousands of years, and deservedly so, rubbish.

Don’t toss it out though, it’s ideal for the compost heap or chipboard manufacture.

I have experimented with fermenting bran-rich wholemeal flour doughs for over 24 hours and still the resulting bread is indigestible.

The germ of grains too, like bran, is loaded with anti-nutrients.

Wheat germ oil is an excellent food, but prone to rapid rancidification, and this is true of the whole germ of any grain – not to be eaten raw, even if it’s super fresh – makes no difference, ‘cause the anti-nutrient phytates are still present.

This is what wholemeal means - that the bran and sometimes the germ too are left in the flour.

So you see, this is my case(not yet rested) - that whole don’t necessarily mean wholesome!

The ancient, tried and true slow-ferment baking way rejected outright the germ and bran of grains. It fermented doughs overnight, and delivered nourishing, allergen-free, 100% digestible bread from unbleached, long-fermented plain flour, just like my uncle did, and just like many of today’s tradition-savvy Italian and French bakers do.

Ask your bakers how long they leave their bread dough sit, or is it stand?

Some excellent bread bakers do exist – Sonoma in Sydney, Crystal Waters in Qld, SOL in Brisbane, and Goanna Bakery in Lismore. But don’t eat loaves that have been dusted with raw flour. This defeats and pollutes the basic purpose of the long fermentation.

Cereal Killers

“Puffed” cereals are particularly irksome because of the high heat and pressure processing, but flakes and other shaped cereals are no better, including the so-called health versions. Studies have shown that these heat-extruded grain preparations can have an even more adverse effect on the blood sugar than refined sugar.

Nevertheless, in television advertising, they are totally misrepresented as almost wonder foods, supported by sports stars with false and fabricated health claims.

All mueslis, cereals, fast-rise breads, puffed rice/corn cakes, pizza bases, pastas, pastries and biscuits contain under-prepared grains, and most contain dextro-malt, lecithin or glucose in one or more of their many disguises – hence numerous toxic, mineral-denying, anti-nutrient allergens plus indigestible proteins and carbs, etc. are being ingested. Yet most of these extremely popular foods can also be made from the same, but carefully fermented grains. It just takes time.

From the early 1960’s onwards, as a result of championing brown rice and wholemeal everything, we have given many deleterious substances totally unwarranted and misleading kudos. And we are suffering, en masse.

Billions of Asian (and other) peoples have eaten, for millennia, not whole, not brown, but white rice, exclusively!

How do proponents of brown rice get around this amazing statistic? Do they seriously think that these ancient societies got it wrong?

Give us a break!

The first cereal-gathering people would have tried eating and cooking grains many different ways, over aeons, as their stomachs’ and bodies’ reactions refined their attitudes to each grain. The white rice diet of Asia is the result of such ageless observation and tradition, from both dietary and medical standpoints.

If brown rice were healthier, they’d be eating it!

An explorer of all things freeing, I. N. Cognito is a Super Hero who strives to bring clarity and focus to issues of health and food freedom.

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COMMENTS - 120 Responses

  1. Okay, so is this author suggesting we use “white” (albeit unbleached) flour in our baking? Even Sally Fallon uses wholemeal flour, fresh ground and with long soaks. And I’ve heard that white flour products deplete B vitamins. I’m really confused!

    What are others in the Nourished community doing/thinking on this one?

    Lisa

  2. Great article Clive. Know of anyone in Brissy serving up the long-fermented bread? thanks

  3. Hi Clive,

    I just had a go at making your sourdough bread. And the results were spectacular!!! Now I have never made bread before except using breadmachine mixes so I am pretty impressed that it came out so well first try! I just used plain white flour I had in the cupboard instead of bread flour. Does it matter? Do you get a better loaf out of bread flour?

    I’m curious about what you were saying about wholemeal flours. In Nourishing Traditions it says to use wholemeal flours as all the vitamins etc are in the germ. Wouldn’t sourdough wholemeal flour be healthier than white flour?

    Cheers,

    Kelly

  4. Comment:
    Clive, I like your article. Sounds like common sense to me.

  5. Great that you got excellent bread.
    Not good to use “bread flour”, just plain, organic, wheat flour is best.
    What was posted on Nourished mag was a chapter from my book, “Whole don’t
    mean Wholesome” - A Love of Fermentation and All Things Slooow”. So please
    read that and perhaps some of your questions will be answered re wholemeal,
    etc.
    If you like, I can send you other chapters which lead up to, and explain,
    the reality in more depth.
    Wholemeal is indigestible, and houses toxic anti-nutrients. It was an
    aberration, an error in the development of the diet.
    All the best,
    Love,
    Clive Lawler
    2die4 Live Foods
    Byron bay

  6. Dear Clive. I followed your recipe using a small amt of regular bread yeast. As our house gets cold at night, I placed the dough to ferment above the wood-burning stove., which eventually goes out during the night! All together, incl. the rising in the 2 pans, rising time was c. 19 hours. The bread is nice, my husband really loves it, as do I though I’m not a huge bread-eater, but it does not have a sour taste like the purchased “sourdough” or like the rye sourdough bread I have made, where I did not use any yeast at all, except for a home-made starter. Where did I go wrong? I used 1/2 C. of white rice flour + 1/2 C. oat flour because that is what I had on hand in the freezer.

    The bag was labelled “Unbleached White Flour” but I thought it was a wee bit dark for unbleached and suspect that it was merely super-sifted and there were tiny bits of bran in there. Could this have caused the lack of sour taste?

    Also, are you sure that bran, even if super-fermented, would remain undigestible? Is there a possibility that it serves a medicinal purpose in SOME people and was never intended to be an everyday food for all people in a population? I mean, they say everything has a purpose - the bad stuff in whole grains has been made into a supplement for people with certain conditions. So for me the big issue is: just how much tradition can we truly go back to, without considering all intervening developments in our own civilizations’ evolution?

    I am very interested indeed in fermented foods in general. I pickle stuff from my garden and it is so nice to bring out a jar of whatever in these cold winter months.

    I am interested in reading your book and would like to buy it bye-the-bye. Quite a few yr. ago I bought a wee book on fermented foods from around the world but it was not detailed enough. Regards, Madam Anna May.

  7. AM dear,
    My answers are in CAPITALS amongst your words.
    I’ve attached the intro + first chapters of my book, leading into BREAD
    DREAD. Please read them, and you will understand things much better,
    especially the “One Woman’s Passion” section.
    It’s a DOC file, if you have any trouble downloading, I will send a PDF.
    OK?

    Dear Clive. I followed your recipe using a small amt of regular bread
    yeast. As our house gets cold at night, I placed the dough to ferment above
    the wood-burning stove., which eventually goes out during the night! All
    together, incl. the rising in the 2 pans, rising time was c. 19 hours. The
    bread is nice, my husband really loves it, as do I though I’m not a huge
    bread-eater, but it does not have a sour taste like the purchased
    “sourdough” or like the rye sourdough bread I have made, where I did not use
    any yeast at all, except for a home-made starter. Where did I go wrong? I
    used 1/2 C. of white rice flour + 1/2 C. oat flour because that is what I
    had on hand in the freezer.

    CORRECT. THIS BREAD IS NOT SOUR LIKE SOURDOUGH, YOU DID PERFECT.
    OAT AND ESPECIALLY RICE FLOUR MAKE IT A LITTLE HEAVIER, BUT FINE, AND YOUR
    HUSBAND LOVES IT!!
    >
    > The bag was labelled “Unbleached White Flour” but I thought it was a wee
    bit dark for unbleached and suspect that it was merely super-sifted and
    there were tiny bits of bran in there. Could this have caused the lack of
    sour taste?

    AS I SAID, THIS IS NOT SOUR BREAD.
    THE UNBLEACHED FLOUR YOU USED WAS EXACTLY RIGHT. I DON’T USE THE WORD
    “WHITE”, I USE “PLAIN” FLOUR. AS YOU DESCRIBED, IT’S OFF-WHITE, STILL WITH
    ALL THE NUTRIENTS, AND JUST A TOUCH OF FINER BRAN PARTICLES - PERFECTO.
    >
    > Also, are you sure that bran, even if super-fermented, would remain
    undigestible? Is there a possibility that it serves a medicinal purpose in
    SOME people and was never intended to be an everyday food for all people in
    a population? I mean, they say everything has a purpose - the bad stuff in
    whole grains has been made into a supplement for people with certain
    conditions. So for me the big issue is: just how much tradition can we
    truly go back to, without considering all intervening developments in our
    own civilizations’ evolution?

    NO, IT’S A MODERN ABERRATION, AND THERE’S ADEQUATE ROUGHAGE ANYWAY IN THAT
    FLOUR YOU USED, AND DIGESTIBLE TOO.
    I ONCE FERMENTED A DOUGH MADE WITH FRESH WHOLEMEAL FLOUR FOR 48 HOURS!! AND
    STILL IT WAS ACIDIC AND INDIGESTIBLE.
    READ MY BOOK HERE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND.
    >
    > I am very interested indeed in fermented foods in general. I pickle stuff
    from my garden and it is so nice to bring out a jar of whatever in these
    cold winter months.
    >
    > I am interested in reading your book and would like to buy it bye-the-bye.
    Quite a few yr. ago I bought a wee book on fermented foods from around the
    world but it was not detailed enough. Regards, Madam Anna May.

    LOTSA LOVE,
    CLIVE

  8. For those of you, in Sydney or the Sunshine Coast, who may not have the time for the splendidly satisfying job of bread-making (fools!), Sonoma Bakery in Sydney makes traditional recipe bread (36 hours fermentation), as does new creation, Alchemy Bakery of Maleny, who sell thru the Maple St. Co-op.
    Clive

  9. Letting you all know, dear Nourishers, that Clive’s book, “Whole Don’t Mean Wholesome” is available in the Nourishing Store for $38.

    http://nourishingstore.com.au/products-page/?product_id=13

    It’s well worth the investments. Oh and if you haven’t tasted his Activated Nuts, you simply must.

  10. 10. Jeff Lapides
    Feb 8th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    Clive:

    Stumbled on your blog and wanted to echo what you say. I recently learned about a simple super-fermented way to make bread and wow does it work well.

    Mix your usual salt, water, yeast and flour and let it rise for a couple of hours. Do not knead it.
    Put it in the refrigerator (covered) for up to about two weeks.
    Take out what you need (wait for a few days at least); let it rise and bake it at 425.

    Enjoy.

    Jeff

  11. Hi Jeff,
    Placing the dough, as you suggest, in the fridge after 2 hours would suppress the fermentation process, so I would doubt, once you make a loaf, that the ferment time would have exceeded the essential 6 hours (at normal air temperature_. Bread doughs MUST ferment longer than 6 hours for the enzymatic conversion to be complete, the longer the better, meaning the gluten and carbs have totally transformed into their digestible, nutritious “other selves”.
    Clive

  12. 12. Jeff Lapides
    Feb 8th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    It is not baked until after at least days (sometimes weeks) and after a second rising at room temperature, a couple more hours. Judging from the fact that bubbles continue to form during the multi-day process, fermentation is continuing albeit more slowly.

    The bread has a wonderful texture when done and is very digestible. Try it, you might be surprised.

  13. Wow, I am surprised that nourishedmagazine would promote “white” rice and “white” flour. I guess, each new opinion will sell books and in order to market an idea, we need to arrive at a “right and wrong way to eat”. It doesn’t make sense that the ancient people remove the bran from their food - how would then have done it, without the use of machinery. Have you ever tried making white rice from brown rice - you would probably go hungry before you succeeded !

    Why is it too that cockatoos that live for a hundred years can happily feast on raw food and they don’t go to the trouble of fermenting their grains. Why do humans cook, when other animals don’t? If you believe in evolution, you probably will be stumped for an answer because to suggest that man evolved to need clothes, cook food, require shelter is quite ridiculous. But if you believe that God created the heavens and the earth, then you can read the story of what food he provided for man and it is well documented in the Old Testament, what foods were considered “clean” and “unclean”.

    In the end, man will die ragardless of whether he eats well or not but there is hope for those who seek the truth. No need to buy any books on what to eat, read the old testament and you will find the answer to what is good to eat, how to prepare it and what foods to avoid.

  14. Response to Jen
    From Clive Lawler:

    I don’t see Nourished Magazine as “promoting” anything by publishing stories and blogs.
    It is simply an open forum for expression and retort - extremely healthy situation I would say. The key word there is “open”, a quality you don’t much appear, by your assumptions and judgements, to embody.
    I believe I have answered your queries, or statements, regarding birds/animals and fermentation in the following chapter from my book. Bear in mind that its previous chapters have detailed explanations for some of the expressions used here:

    WE ARE NOT RUMINANTS
    Even the ubiquitous and lauded alfalfa sprout contains a toxic amino acid called canavanine. Alfalfa is lucerne, gourmet food for a cow or any ruminant. Humans don’t have the digestive system to cope with canavanine, because we don’t have the stomach for raw foods, period. However, a quick soaking of sprouts in cider (or any fermented) vinegar de-fuses any unwanted toxic presence.

    No doubt we could eat raw foods till the cows come home, if, IF, we had a cow’s, or a rabbit’s, or a deer’s multiple stomach arrangement, because whilst the final one of the four ruminant stomachs is for normal, human-style acid digestion, the first, the primary and largest stomach, the rumen, is for yes, fermentation – bacterial fermentation of the enormous cellulose content of the green/raw vegetable world they consume, and where anti-nutrients and toxins such as phytates, oxalates and canavanine are either neutralised or discarded, making food ready for passage to the second stomach, the reticulum.
    Here, any undigested food is packed into cud, which is regurgitated for chewing (hence, even further processing and refinement); then onto the third stomach, the omasum, where water from digested materials is reabsorbed. Phew!
    Stomachs 1, 2 and 3 are all pre-digestive facilities humans do not possess.
    Finally, food reaches the cow’s equivalent of the human’s one and only stomach - the abomasum - where acid and pepsin digestion begins upon any proteins still remaining.
    All of this is necessary – just to digest raw food.

    Other ruminants or animals with digestive systems similar to that of the cow include the gazelle, giraffe, moose, antelope, caribou, sheep, goat, deer, kangaroo, camel and llama. The tiny, carrot-loving rabbit too has a multi-stomach system.
    Raw and whole foods are perfect for these creatures. Not so for humans.
    Other classic wholefood eaters, the birds which eat seeds, nuts and grains, have a recessed pre-digestive area in the oesophagus, called the crop, where any quickly-swallowed food is caught and held. Here it is softened and ground up with small stones the birds swallow – before moving onto the proventriculus.
    There, large amounts of digestive juices are produced, particularly pepsin and hydrochloric acid. Then on to the gizzard for further grinding.
    We had a pet talking cockatoo, which would carefully remove all husks and bran from seeds and nuts before eating the inner part only.

    Humans don’t have rumens, or crops; chewing does help, but we don’t have the stomach for raw and whole foods. We are destined to do the essential preparatory work in our precious kitchens – the critical work of pre-digestion, of fermentation.

    Sure, you’d have to eat a sinkful of alfalfa sprouts to actually endanger your life with canavanine poisoning, but who needs yet another toxin to combat? We have enough, in the environment alone.

    Even if your food is mostly organic, when you total the daily consumption of anti-nutrients and indigestible elements from sprouts, other raw foods, quick-fermented (basically all) breads, non-fermented (all) pizza bases and pastas, biscuits and grains, unsoaked and poorly cooked beans or pulses, toxic raw nuts and mueslis, numerous other wheat and soy products, tampered-with milks and yoghurts, etc., you can get some idea of the humungous job given to our embattled, flagging immune and digestive systems, which are working overtime, and which are more vulnerable to serious violation now than at any other time in history.
    That’s without any consideration of phosphates, pesticides, any other externally applied chemicals, and junk additives like msg, tvp, hvp, corn (grain) syrup or dextro-maltose, and the endless list of chemical preservatives.

    This part of the narrative deals only with what naturally occurs within each plant.
    For those who fear loss of vitamins, chlorophyll, etc., due to cooking, know that the chlorophyll in greens is actually enhanced for the first few seconds it is placed in simmering water, and is still available for up to 7 minutes of gentle boil. Ditto with orange veges and their carotene. There’s no need (as there is with say, dried pulses and root veges) to cook green vegetables for a long time, because they surrender their anti-nutrients quite easily. Even the ancient practise of peeling and soaking vegetables in water before cooking has a modern scientific validation. Don’t knock it.
    The greatest concentration of phytates being found in, and close to, the skins, traditional wisdom told our foremothers to remove all skins and soak the veges in water for several hours prior to cooking. The peeling routs the external battalion of anti-nutrients, the long-soaking leaches out the inner brigade.
    I remember seeing both my grandmothers doing this, and wondered why.
    I wonder if they ever wondered too.

    Water and time are the key components. Water penetrates, leaches out unwanted elements, neutralises and cleanses, so if you must use inorganic produce, long soaking will assist in removing chemical elements such as pesticide residues.

    However slight the nutrient loss thru peeling, soaking and cooking, it cannot compare with what the body must expend, must waste, in order to combat ingested anti-nutrients and inadequately converted carbohydrates, sugars, fats and other nutrients.

    It is possible for humans to (not actually graze, but most definitely) enjoy the green, red and orange vegetable/fruit world, to ensure their vitamin/mineral/chlorophyll and beta-carotene, etc. intake, but we must mimic the cow – beloved bovine, sublimely slow – not in the fields, but in the kitchen, the three pre-stomachs of the kitchen, via various lacto-fermentation processes and their kindred crafts – peeling, long soaking, and careful sloooow cooking.
    This is necessary for our lone stomach to ably perform, for the body to thrive.

    And “thrive” it does, because when we eat peeled, soaked, well-fermented, appropriately-cooked foods and avoid anti-nutrient intake, the vitamins and minerals in the food become not only fully available but also enriched, and the body experiences an enzyme surplus, a splendid satiety, a glorious plague of nutrients and anti-bodies which have been relieved of their defensive duties, free now for previously unfamiliar tasks of repair and invigoration – duties they rarely get time to perform in most modern-day bodies.

    Bruce Lipton, cellular scientist extraordinaire, in his bloody marvellous new book “The Biology of Belief”, writes a chapter titled “The Biology of Homeland Defence”.
    It explains how “the body has two separate protection systems, each vital to the maintenance of life”.
    Put very simply, external threats are handled by the HPA axis, which ultimately activates the adrenal gland in fight or flight situations. The latter may include anything from a lion attack to a tsunami to everyday elevated stress levels.
    Internal threat, which covers everything that we eat, drink, inhale or absorb, toxins from the kitchen or the atmosphere, are managed by the immune system.
    Now you can see by those two job descriptions that both systems must be extremely busy, in many people, much of the time.
    The crucial aspect to Lipton’s explanation is that when the fight or flight defence is up and running, it dominates all other systems, severely restricting their functioning, especially the immune, digestive, and intelligent thinking faculties.
    Lipton explains “once the adrenal alarm is sounded —– the visceral organs stop doing their life-sustaining work of digestion, absorption, excretion, and other functions that provide for the growth of the cells and the production of the body’s energy reserves”.
    Stressful life = extremely poor accessibility to immunity, digestion, regeneration and clear thought.
    Similarly, if the immune system is heavily occupied with countering toxic dietary input, such as anti-nutrients, other indigestible elements, drugs and so on, as well as coping with everyday environmental pollutants, then quite naturally other system functions suffer.
    Now when you consider that these two defence systems are being called upon constantly, it’s small wonder that we are getting sicker and sicker, but also, crucially, dumber and dumber.
    When will we relax, sloooow down, laugh, eat well, have fun?

    Apart from managing the anti-nutrient factor, there is an entirely separate raison d’être for fermentation – and that is the intrinsic enzymatic converting, into their nourishing, pre-digested alter-egos, of the complex starches, sugars, fats and other nutrients within all foods - elements which, without such transformative action, are not only denied us, but are also indigestible, and ultimately, toxic.
    Yes, that’s right, unconverted nutrients are toxic to the human body!!
    A Jekyll and Hyde scenario.
    The properly cooked (or the lacto-fermented) food is imparting optimum benefit, tox-free. But what has become normal fare– as in present-day rapid food preparation – robs us of nutrients and of precious enzymes to fight the (mostly unnecessary) fight (against the toxins that same food introduces).
    Lose – lose.
    The other (traditional) way gifts us with accessible nutrients plus multiple enzymes – sans the fight.
    Win – win.

    All foods actually demand fermentation before consumption.
    If we don’t do the necessary before eating, it’s gonna happen anyway, after eating. Meaning? As with the cows, fermentation of food must occur before digestion. It’s a rule of nature. Humans don’t have this facility. Chewing helps, but it’s not enough.
    So, it’s all destined to happen in our stomach, which is a totally inappropriately designed for such activity.
    This gaffe results in the creation of numerous gases and toxins injurious to well-being.
    Further evidence of the importance of prior fermenting is revealed in the bread that I make. Because it is long-fermented (12 hours or more) at the dough stage, hence all nutrients have been enzymatically converted, it has a greatly extended shelf-life. I’ve seen loaves keep well for weeks, with little or no breakdown.
    Compare this to what happens to fast breads, given the same conditions. They start to ferment, the marker of this activity being the rapid growth of fungus, and they become inedible. Ferment the bread before cooking and you will see no fungus for weeks.
    Observe the bloating stomachs of African kids surviving on almost raw or poorly prepared grains. This is fermentation taking place inside the body. I saw it frequently in the 70’s commune kids and adults who fed on raw foods.
    Our food, only 100% of it, screams out for pre-digestion!
    Check out your own wind situation. This is fermentation happening - anyway.
    An “F” in the School of Farts.

    Proper mastication of foods, ie. chewing long and well and introducing saliva into our food is an important aid to the human body’s own digestive process, in that it will create more access to nutrients and less acidity, but it will not neutralize the natural toxins, the anti-nutrients in our food.
    People who chew well are fortunate, but I am reminded of an excellent yarn from the great Sufi master George Gurdjieff’s classic work “Meetings with Remarkable Men”, a book, and later movie, which delighted me in the late 70’s.

    GG’s love, as a young man, was to roam with several friends over much of Asia Minor and Russia seeking heightened, cutting-edge experiences and enlightened beings in an intense search for “the truth”. It is reported that he once deliberately drove a Bugatti racing car at full speed into a tree, breaking many bones in his body, just for the experience, and to see how aware he would remain. Apparently he passed his own test.
    He remained conscious throughout the ordeal, and survived.
    One of the journeys these wandering compadres embarked upon took them into the Turkish mountains to sit with a Sufi dervish master.
    As they shared a bowl of rice around an evening fire, the master observed, with some hilarity, that George was still eating long after he and the others had finished their repast. GG had recently adopted the discipline of chewing each mouthful 50 times, and this ritual became the focus for the master to speak, giving GG (and myself as I read, for I had also been suffering the same practise) what would prove to be a powerful and welcome lesson in balance and acceptance, a slap in the face of fanaticism.

    The essence of that discourse went so:
    If you naturally eat fast, the body will adjust, it will create both the necessary chemical presence and the efficiency to deal with any contingency.
    First and foremost, be and love what you are. Don’t force change upon what is already perfect as it is, or you will set up new and complex stresses, neuroses, and illnesses.
    Do not seek enlightenment through the body, nor attempt to become healthy by imposing absurd disciplines upon it. If you are a fast eater, then be a fast eater, happily. Be yourself and all else will take care of itself. Let your body adjust to what you are, and don’t manipulate the body towards some idealistic notion of what you could, or should, be.
    I cheered to tears upon reading that.
    Yet another self-imposed hard time vanished.

  15. “When will we relax, sloooow down, laugh, eat well, have fun?”

    Great Question Clive. One I hope to answer myself this year. So far though, I’m failing abysmally. Any ideas any one?

  16. Jen, your post made me think! How, indeed, did ancient people remove the bran from their grains? Does anyone here have an answer?

    However, I am not so sure that we have to take our cues on how & what to eat from the old testament. The OT was written for a certain population at a certain time in its history. That has nothing to do with me, here, today. Of course I am not saying all the advice contained in that book is wrong, only that there are all kinds of factors involved in what to eat. And, yes, that’s a good point - we are all going to croak some day regardless of what we eat!

  17. I have to agree and disagree with taking our cues from the OT. I believe that God gave those rules for sanitation as well as health. Our family chooses not to eat anything from a pig or seafood that does not have scales. I realize that both types of animals have certain health benefits, but they also have several unhealthy factors. Pigs dont digest things like a rumen. Food they digest is immediately placed into their muscle for energy. This means everything they eat, whether it be grain, feces, a dead animal or vegetation isn’t put through a rigorous cleansing process in the stomach. Seafood is somewhat similar. I think that God was looking out for our best interest when he gave us these food guidelines. However, today we have better sanitation (in some ways) and are able to prepare and store our food differently. I’m a big fan of common sense and listening to my body. My body has been responding very well to the bread I make with 50% unbleached white flour, after it is soaked and fermented. Usually my digestion does not agree with white flour, until now with this process. I will continue to use whole wheats and grains 90% of the time though, as I know there’s higher nutritional value. When it comes to your food guidelines, I believe that your body will tell you what it can and cant handle. I have simply found that for us, my family, we do well to loosely follow the guidelines given to us in the Bible.

  18. Well Anna, yes a lot of us a led to believe that the Old Testament has little or no relevance, perhaps we should not refer to it as the Old Testament but as the Scriptures (the world “old” seems to frame it as outdated) . It is both a historical and spiritual book and as the Oldest written historical documents, it is a wonder it is not compulsory reading. Our society today has laws based on the Ten Commandments but we don’t throw out our laws(do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery) because they were based on Old Testament. For many years I ignored the Old Testament but there is great blessing in reading it.

    There is so much in the Old Testament from what happens to a society that exacts usury (interest) and how wealth concentrates in the hands of a few, without a year of Jubilee (a year when debts are released), to food preparation, hygiene and spiritual wisdom, etc.

    Man did not eat bread until after Adan sinned and broke God’s law. “In the sweat of your brow, you will eat bread, till you return to the ground” It is commonly known that grain was central to the diet of early civilisations, without it we could not survive on seasonal fruit, which also does not satisfy. People did not kill meat like we do today. They had no means of refrigeration and animals were valuable for milk and textiles. Meat was reserved for special occasions or necessity. It was only 200 years ago that the potato came to become a replacement for bread and the peasants did not want to accept this food but were ordered to plant potatoes instead of grain by the nobility. Grain takes work to prepare (so with the peasants eating potatoes, they had more time to do other things for the nobility) but can stored for many years. It is a staple. Further bread is both eaten with and without leaven, with special holy days where it was eaten without leaven. Symbolic of cleansing. There is no evidence in the Old Testament that eating bread made without yeast is bad, in fact it was eaten at the Passover Feast and for 7 days in the Feast of the Unleavened Bread. Generally, though bread was eaten with yeast but the old yeast was thrown out before Passover. The Last Supper was celebrated with unleavened bread.

    So the Israelites lived for thousands of years eating bread and they were a healthy people - just look at the geneology, the years they lived for and the number of children they had. There was no mention in the Old Testament of how long the bread had to ferment for, yet it is well documented how a priest should inspect for leprosy and what should be done if a person was found with leprosy. Our bodies can digest prepared grains and if it were not so, the Old Testament would have recorded it and on top of which, the Israelites would have been a sickly nation. Indeed they had no means of removing the bran from the bread - though they threashed the wheat, it would not have removed the bran. So if the Israelites ate bran in their bread and lived well, I imagine we will too.

    Todays people are clogged up with years of potato and meat eating. Bread is good for your heart and the bran in the bread helps you to remove from your body all the dead cells and estrogen (excess estrogen leads to numerous health problems). Eating additional bran only clogs up your body because it is out of balance but if you grind your own flour, you can be certain that you won’t be getting too much bran and if your body feels like lighter flour, then a sifter is in order.

  19. For one, how did you know if the ancient people ate just white rice? I am from one of those Ancient groups and let me tell you we mainly used whole wheat flour for most of our dishes. I am part Indian. Yes as a young child we ate white rice, but I cannot stand it any more.

    I eat only brown rice and have done for many many years now and my children will only eat brown rice and do not like white bread or white anything. In fact i find it hard to eat white rice or white bread;. My children balk at white pasta and my older daughter in particular loves, the whole spelt variety or the whole rye variety.

    After such a long time of eating only brown rice, I find eating white rice a bit hard to take. Too plain in taste for me. I do not feed my family any processed cereal. That means no weetbix or fruit loops. We eat good old fashioned porridge of either the oats, barley or spelt variety, which my children love, or eggs, boiled or scrambled, brown bread for breakfast. My kids are healthy. They have no problems. But then again, they eat loads of fruits, almost $80 a week is spent only on fruit, sometimes even more and they are mostly organic. They do not snakcon artificially flavoured yoghourt, but instead eat the wholemilk natural one, and I add honey in it, for my older daughter as she loves it that way. However that is only what we do at home.

    My older one goes to pre school twice a week, so where I can, I make sure nothign artificial touches her lips.

  20. And yes I soak my porridge over night before cooking too. I also soak my lentils too, over night as this peeds up the cooking process.

  21. Lacey, I have to agree with you.

  22. Hello, Jen. I appreciate y0ur long essay on interpretation of holy scripture. I have made Clive’s long-fermented bread 2 ways: with unbleached white flour with small particles of bran and also with totally purified white unbleached. Believe me, the former - with the small bran particles - is much, much more satifying. Clive says that using all the bran in the wheat is not traditional practice and that bran, no matter how fermented, is indigestible. Maybe it is undigestible for only certain people?

    Mum, you say you are part Indian. I presume you mean asiatic Indian (not North American aboriginal). I wonder if you are familiar with a fermented bread (rice & lentil) patty called idli. I am planning to buy an idli maker and take a crack at it, as I love fermenting things. (I’ve made soybean tempeh many years ago, yogurt, too - it’s all very satisfying!)

    You know, I think that “what we should eat” all hinges on: how do you define tradition as it comes to food? I think that one could debate and discuss this for hours. Where does tradition start? Well, obviously, with one’s own ethnicity. But it is more complicated than that. No ethnic group, unless you are talking about some paleo tribe in Borneo or the Amazon region, has been eating the same food for thousands of years.

    My own people came from eastern Europe in 1900 but when they arrived in North America they wanted to eat native North American food such as corn meal & tomatoes, as well as Oriental food such as rice - because they ate it in Eastern Europe! So, the influences of those foods were in their DNA for a few generations, and therefore in mine also. How could I possibly track down “tradition” for myself? My parents, whose reproductive cells created me, were an admixture of food influences from around the world. I cannot, therefore, even figure out what my tradition is in any pure sense. I hope you understand what I am saying, and I very much welcome your viewpoints, all of you who are reading this.

    Maybe we should eat whatever we feel like eating, so long as it doesn’t make us sick. If we become ill, it may not be the food that did it, but some inherent weakness and lack of perfection & that we are all born with, according to the holy scriptures that Jen has studied (tho I am not at all religious, I don’t reject the bible completely).

  23. Clive, I loved reading your response to Jen. So much good information in there.

  24. Yes. I am of the Asiatic stock and yes we ate idli at my grandmother’s house. I am not sure how she made it though.

  25. According to Jeffry Gordan, a scientist at Washington University in St. Louis and his research team “The landscape of the human gut is truly terra incognita, ..The menagerie of microscopic organisms living there acts like an organ that carries out functions that we humans have not had to evolve.”

    Which species of microbes live in the gut and what they do in there are just two of the many key questions that scientists are asking about this largely unexplored realm.

    What I find particularly interesting about this research is that though many people claim to know exactly how the human body works and what it can and cannot digest, these resaarchers see the microbes in the gut as an unexplored area in science - indeed how our body digests food is largely a mystery. Anyone that claims otherwise, should be able to explain why the make up of microbes varies from person to person, and changes during ones lifetime. They should also be able to document the thousands of microbes and the various combinations present in each individual and their function in the human digestive system. Even David Relman and his collegues at Stanford University stopped counting when they hit 395 different species in 3 healthy people. See http://www.newsweek.com/id/73357 for the full article. (or google these names for papers and articles)

    With a University major in Statistics, I can tell you that the number of permuations and combinations of microbes would mean that there an infinite number of microbe colonies to assess and determining exactly how each particular microbe works and how they work in unison with other microbes would be several lifetimes of work, and perhaps never achievable because each person has their own unique set of microbes. Research has centred on what microbes are common to obese people, in an attempt to isolate the microbes that are responsible for obesity. Like any research, there has to be a hypothesis, and the hypothesis is, that “certain microbes affect weight gain” but if the researchers’ hypothesis is “the absense of which microbes is responsible for weight gain”. The results of the research change.

    Therefore, what is nourishing is largely both a religious and personal decision.

    The worst thing anyone can do, is to blindly follow the advise of another person, if their body, heart and mind tells them differently.

    Personally, I can say as a mother of many children that our family, rarely gets sick, perhaps a running nose for a day, now and then, usually if we’ve been up late for a number of nights. They all have well formed teeth, strong bones, athletic, full of energy, mentally fit, have great appetitites, sleep well, and have no health problems that so oommonly afflict today’s children.

    People ask, why are my children healthy?

    And my answer is in best said in Psalms 103
    Praise the LORD, O my soul,
    and forget not all his benefits-

    3 who forgives all your sins
    and heals all your diseases,

    4 who redeems your life from the pit
    and crowns you with love and compassion,

    5 who satisfies your desires with good things
    so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

    6 The LORD works righteousness
    and justice for all the oppressed.

    7 He made known his ways to Moses,
    his deeds to the people of Israel:

    8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
    slow to anger, abounding in love.

    9 He will not always accuse,
    nor will he harbor his anger forever;

    10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
    or repay us according to our iniquities.

    11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
    so great is his love for those who fear him;

    12 as far as the east is from the west,
    so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

    13 As a father has compassion on his children,
    so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;

    14 for he knows how we are formed,
    he remembers that we are dust.

    15 As for man, his days are like grass,
    he flourishes like a flower of the field;

    16 the wind blows over it and it is gone,
    and its place remembers it no more.

    17 But from everlasting to everlasting
    the LORD’s love is with those who fear him,
    and his righteousness with their children’s children-

    18 with those who keep his covenant
    and remember to obey his precepts.

    19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven,
    and his kingdom rules over all.

    20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
    you mighty ones who do his bidding,
    who obey his word.

    21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
    you his servants who do his will.

    22 Praise the LORD, all his works
    everywhere in his dominion.
    Praise the LORD, O my soul.

    Further, we don’t go to doctors, we don’t get vaccinated, we don’t use medicines or eat processed food. We eat wholegrain foods. we are vegetarian (though the old testament people ate meat, they poured the blood on the ground and only ate fresh meat that was recently killed - that is not readily available today and I don’t think anyone in our family has the stomach for killing an animal), we don’t use the microwave, our food is sourced as much as possible from farms (perhaps one day, we’ll be able to grow it ourselves), we grind our own flour, our water is sourced from mineral springs. milk, olive oil and spelt grain from the farm. We eat organic fruits and vegetables - lots and lots of fruit.

    Did we get to this lifestyle and diet overnight?

    No, we made small changes, adopted new habits and saw the benefits of those changes. It is easy to go back to old habits but when our decision was sealed when I realized that what you eat represents who you are and our food should glorify the God that we worship. So that is why, we go back to the only guide that is reliable - the Old Testament scriptures. There are so many new opinions, by so called experts but even the scientists agree, the human gut is a mystery and if you choose to follow the advise of any one person, you’d be gambling that their advise was sound because you will end up reaping the results of that advise. For me, I’d put my trust in God over any research, book or article.

    Anyway, thought you would enjoy the extra bit of information about the human gut and microbes.

    Best wishes to all.

  26. Your comments on the gut microorganisms was pure gold, Jen. It is because everyone has his own unique combo of bacteria that I think we really ought to be feeding what is already there instead of getting too hooked on probiotics from a jar. Whatever is going on in there is really such a great mystery and one wonder if we will ever, ever figure it out completely. However, some people are so sick they need to take probiotics. I say, never be rigid about anything.

    And religious dietary and behavioural advice is like that too - some people just naturally gravitate to the holy scriptures that you love and quote, and others feel no attraction to them whatsoever. I occasionally like to use the bible to back up my opinions on something or other, rather than the other way around.

    You know the saying, “You are what you eat.” My husband says, “No. You eat what you ARE.” I have come to agree with him. The spirit is there first.

    How many children do you have? I started too late so only have one. Oh, well. If I could relive my life, I’d have 8 or so.

  27. Hi Anna,

    Yes, your husband is so right, you eat what you are but you are equally as right. I have often wondered why people continue to eat from the supermarket when they know its bad for them, why when I first got married, we thought eating was buying food from the supermarket but that was who we were then - we ate what we were. As you explore and understand the world around you, you learn to chuck out the old ways and adopt new ways. The change comes from within first.

    We have nine children, aged 17 to 2. So it is very lively (noisy) house. I chose to follow God when I was younger and seek what he wanted, and it kind of ended up that I had quite a quiver full. It is hard to deny His power in my life because I have very easy births - a few contractions and the baby is out - kind of like going to the toilet. I probably would never have gone down this road, of going back to a wholefood, back to basics, Old Testament diet without the children being there.

    Food for me has been a journey of discovery, as much as my spiritual journey. A lot of people say to me, “we don’t have time to make our own bread or do what you do” and that is how I used to think too. Why make bread when I could buy it for $1.40. I realize that, that what I chose to eat, was a reflection of who I was then; impatient, stressed, competitive, mathematical, tunnel visioned.

    As I changed on the inside, I learned to find enjoyment and satisfaction in making my own bread and food. I enjoyed both the doing and the result (though food doesn’t last long around here). I enjoyed being home, where once I was itching to be out all the time. As my diet changed, espcially riding myself of flouride, I found my mind opened up, I became more creative. Flouride makes you more docile and easily influenced and that combined with television is a bad combination. So getting rid of the flouride by eating organic, avoiding flouride toothpaste and avoiding tap water was probably what helped me turn the corner and move initially to eating organics (though not a very good organic diet - just the same sort of things we ate conventionally only organic). Then meeting other people who ate organic, trying whole lentils for the first time and loving it and learning to bake sourdough bread, make yogurt, try new recipes, etc. Now we’ve given up sugar using honey and agave syrup, pretty much given up coffee, and I have to say, the changes we have made have made have us physically fitter but also, spiritually aware and mentally sharper. So, food does influence who you are, “you are what you eat” but at the same time, you eat what you are. A dominio effect and the only way to get the first domino piece to fall, is for something to click inside.

    Anna, I hope you don’t live with regret about having only one child. You have to accept that for whatever reason, that decision you made was a result of who you were then. The one child you have must be very precious to you.

  28. Wow, what an interesting, factual story. I do so want to try some bread made this way. i wonder if i can get it from maleny. truely this is amazing for me. i’ve gone from white/wholemeal to rye & sourdough in an attempt to try and feel less bloated not realising the fermentation process had such implications!! i’d make my own if i knew how.
    i’m in outer brisbane & the bakeries near me are “fast” and there is such a market for the slow stuff!! i’d buy!!

  29. http://www.slowrise.com.au/

    Found these guys at the Noosa markets while we were there. Yummy and not hard on the tummy.

  30. Jen, you expressed a wish to some day be able to grow your own food. I hope your dream will come true. We have a veg. & flower garden and while the work is hard, there’s nothing like home-grown!

    And thank you for your warm heartedness in your comments to me about having only one child. You sound quite healthy for a woman who has birthed many times. No doubt, God is on your side. I guess he is on all our sides, but our eyes are shut to this, often. Even in bad situations, sometimes you can see a little blessing there if you try. But you know all this. Fluoride is one of the worst things out there, along with aspartame. They truly are brain-damagers. And it seems that 90 per cent of the population doesn’t know or care. If you are blind, you need to be told you are blind, or else you think it’s normal to not see! First, God taps you on the shoulder, and when he has had enough, he kicks you in the a**.

    We are fortunate to have Clive show us, step by step, just how to make the long-raised bread. I wonder why it is called “fermented”, though. I think there is only a minimal amount of true fermentation, but I hope Clive will step in and explain.

  31. I’ve found 2 more bakeries making bread the long-ferment way:
    Suffolk Park Bakery, Byron Bay. Thanx to Tom there.
    Ask for the SOURDOUGH loaf only.
    And:
    Slow Rise Wood Fired Breads
    1160 Cootharaba Road, Boreen Point, Q 4565
    Tel / Fax: 07 5485 3673
    http://www.slowrise.com.au/
    Ciao, Clive

  32. Please note that Slow Rise Wood Fired Breads listed above do NOT sell bread from the address given, so do not call there. They have a stall at the Noosa Growers’ Market each Saturday.

  33. Correction:
    Above notice should read SUNDAY Noosa markets, NOT Saturday.

  34. I appreciate reading about the bread baking in Australia, in the 1950s.
    My comment:
    Usually the germ of any grains and or beans in the bread or any other food are cooked that means the germ is no longer a living or anti-nutrients absorb the minerals and vitamins.

    “Brown rice or whole grains;” vs. “the white rice dietary evolution” is similar in the process of evolvement to the baking of bread. It is just a way of saying that the fast prepared bread is coupled with white rice fast prepared dish.

    Since many are like you share their valuable knowledges about bread baking to others; the brown rice or whole grains provide the body with valuable nutrients and health; as well.

  35. Hello, Clive! Thanks for your writing. You are so kind to share your knowledge with us, and so patient, too!

    It appears to me that when rather large numbers of folk are attracted to a certain kind of food, it is serving a biological purpose. When people first glommed onto brown rice, and whole grains generally, in a big way, and did well on it, that may be because they instinctively needed the supposedly “bad” phytic acid. Why would anyone need phytic acid? Well, as it turns out, phytic acid removes calcium excesses that have been laid down in the soft tissues - and that is not where you want calcium deposited. And the brown rice and cereal-based diets helped us to discharge that.

    And so it goes, too, I think, with raw vegetables & juices, etc. The people attracted to them have had a lifetime of overcooked, oversalted, overprocessed, heavily meat-based diets. The raw food regimen will clean that out, specifically targeting the liver, and is therefore healthy - so long as you know when you have attained a balance, and reduce or stop the raw foods & juices. Trouble is, people become emotionally attached to their food decisions and refuse to see that you simply cannot eat the same way forever.

    I think this might be the case with the nutrient-dense meat- and dairy-based “traditional” diets. The people wanting this, and thriving beautifully, were woefully deficient in nutrients and probably weakened in digestive ability too, so what better way to obtain these nutrients than thru animal products - your body recognizes animal flesh easily and it does not need a complicated digestive process. But whether this is good for you for 40 years is another discussion.

    I would welcome everyone’s opinions. Whatever you choose to eat is just fine. Personally, I have no axe to grind, as I eat day-by-day. Truly, I can’t believe I am saying this because I am so non-religious, but…God works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform.

  36. “Why would anyone need phytic acid? Well, as it turns out, phytic acid removes calcium excesses that have been laid down in the soft tissues - and that is not where you want calcium deposited. And the brown rice and cereal-based diets helped us to discharge that. ”

    Anna, where did you read the above statement? I’ve never heard of that before. Phytic acid may remove excess calcium as you say but it will bind all the other vitamins that you want to absorb too.

    I think I’d be healthier eating a nutrient-dense meat and dairy-based diet for 40 years than a raw foods one for 40 years. Lots of good meat and vegetables is the way to go with some seasonal fruit.

  37. I have read the comments with great interest. Does anyone know of a bakery on the Gold Coast that sells slow rise bread???

  38. Clive:

    I am attempting to feed myself and my family a simple nutritious diet (following Sally Fallon and Schwarzbein), with ‘real’ foods, which is challenging enough with modern life and the pressure from my kids to eat what everyone else is (JUNK). My question to you is are you saying that we need to cook everything? I believed salads of various lettuces and vegetables (some cooked if necessary), with a good dressing, meat (cooked of course) and maybe cheese (pasture fed cows) to be highly nutritious and I eat this every day with a fully cooked meal at night. I believe we eat to live and the obsession with the perfect way to eat doesn’t give one a full, healthy and happy life. Also, I would have thought raw milk, cheese and butter, (which are supposed to be full of enzymes), to be a nutritious food. By the way, every time I think I am on the right track with our diet there is a different opinion to tell me it is completely wrong. I would just like to feed my family well without spending copious hours researching and finding different opinions - I don’t want my family to see a Mum trying lots of different fads. Your comments please would be great.

  39. Dear Clive,

    after I read your atricle I was very excited to try this method. Both my 6 yr old son and I have been diagnosed as gluten intolerant He was very very sick and at age 5 was wearing the same pj’s and clothes he had since he was 3. We are all on the same diet now in our family and he has since thrived. Unfortunately the bread I buy is so very expensive and not at all nice to eat!! Also my Boss eats copious amounts of bread Breakfast, Lunch and Tea and then as a midnight snack. He is always bloated and has colds and coughs and the gunk he blows from his nose ewww. I emailed you article and he made the bread using you method I was a little skeptical to be honest, He absolutely loves it and all of his family also. I tried a piece and I usually know within 2 days how it has effected me a I am happy to say that I had no headaches to stomach pains no going to the loo every 5 minutes and it was so very very delicious. I have since made it at home by hand now and my family love it too. i love finding new things to cook for my family, because of Max’s and my condition I make everything from scratch simply because of the preservatives and chemicals in processed foods I have very lively healthy children and I can only imagine what their behaviour would be like it I introduced fast food, soft drink, lollies and all the processed “school food” avaliable today. I very much look foward to my newsletter each month as their is always something in here for me and my family.

    Kindest Regards
    Fluer

  40. According to Sol Bread’s website, they ferment their bread a minimum of 15 hours so Clive, I don’t know where you got the info from that they “fast trak” it. Can you back that up?

  41. I am still extremely skeptical about this brown Vs white thing. I can see the logic in arguing in favour of white rice because all the countries that traditionally consume rice, eat it white. My husband (who is Japanese) says that even during the war, they put the rice in a bottle and used a stick to remove the bran. However, I don’t think the same argument applies to brown bread. I would argue that, if anything, bread is traditionally brown. On the other hand, I have heard that people with severely compromised digestive systems find it easier to digest refined grains (white bread, white rice). But surely for those of us with healthy digestions, wholegrain is fine as long as we prepare it properly.

  42. Filippa, I like your post. Makes sense to me: if something agrees with you, it’s okay to eat it. Some can’t stomach 100% whole anything, so they might have to consume a somewhat refined version. No problem in my eyes. We are all a little different. But people do change. I used to like brown rice, then it’s like something snapped inside, and now I prefer white rice, esp. Basmati. But I eat it only occasionally. My Food Philosophy is: My wants are my needs!

  43. Clive, your info is a great find. Thanks.
    My acidic digestive condition is wearing me down as it’s been on and off for a couple of years, if not longer. Once only mornings, now any time of day or night. During a previous episode I suspected my home made wheat free muesli, then last year a blood test revealed no Coeliac disease (Gluten intolerance) unlike my sister. Happily I began to eat more bread again. Things seemed ok for a while.
    The reflux is now day and night. This past week, I’ve narrowed down that Oats are the worst and oddly, Wheatbix seem to be ok. This page of info has been fascinating and I’m keen to experiment beginning with soaking my oats overnight - after my current acid bout has settled.
    I’m going to try Clive’s slow-ferment sourdough recipe and I’m wondering about using home milled wheat flour. This is something I’ve not done for years, but still have my mill. There was a time I would never use anything but my own flour, as it was so much superior in taste, and leaven. As my kids grew older and the day busier and more demanding, I stopped milling when products like SOL breads became available. Generally I eat SOL Bread, but I do have my fair share of other wheat based treats.
    Is sifting and discarding the bran sufficient? I once preferred a more coarse flour than powdery, but should I opt for a finer grind and sift?
    Think I have a load of questions now and will have to look for your book at the Mullum bookshop/library.

  44. I found Clive’s article exactly what i needed. I know something is wrong with me apart from diagnosed illness. I continually have wind and stomach ache, which has become hour ending cramp and diarrohea. I was wondering about gluten intolerance and found the bread saga great info. I do not know how to make bread. Do i just follow a reciepe and extend the fermenting time?

    I had also been making raw carrot and green bean vege juice in my juicer. I know realize i need cooked vegies. Nuts have also been a problem. Does this include peanut paste. Are seed oils out? I have been using flaxseed oil to add to my yoghurt/fruit smoothies as i am a vegetarian.

    As bisciuts/cake are non fermented, how do i make them easily digestible? What flours do i use instead of wheat for cake/bisciuts? What about canned baked beans? What food additives do i look out for on labels?

    I use soy milk. Is that a no no?

  45. Dear Robyn,
    About food regimes, you will find your own unique harmony.
    My own sojourn has led me to what I write about, and that always tweaks over time.
    Yes, I feel we DO have to cook more of our foods, and curtail the fanatic reaction to RAW, but NOT, as you say, to cook EVERYTHING.
    I have no doubts that long-soaking, long-fermenting and long, slow, low-heat cooking of our staple commodities will engender immeasurable benefits to the health and ease of humanity.
    I have most definitely NOT indicated that raw milk, cheese and yoghurt are no-nos. On the contrary, I have devoted an entire chapter in my book to their virtues, and in that process slammed pasteurisation, homogenisation and soya milks.
    I wish you well in your quest. There is no goal, only each moment along the way.
    Love,
    Clive

  46. Dear Fluer,
    I love it that you have actually made the bread this way and have seen the benefits.
    That’s all this is about - doing and seeing.
    It’s not a theory about which some people thrive on arguing.
    Whatever you find that suits you is golden.
    Good on ya, love.
    Clive

  47. Dear Anakowi,
    Thanx for the feedback. For me it was a “great find” also.
    My own vicious acidity levels disappeared when I started making long-ferment bread and long-soaking my oats. Plus a few other tricks too. But you are on the right track.
    Home-milled flour is perfect, do it, coarse grind fine, but sift out the larger bran particles.
    Please pass on the gossip of your first bread trials.
    Love,
    Clive
    PS. My book is only in Santos’s Industrial Estate store, or direct from me.

  48. Dear Filippa,
    I suggest you simply try the bread recipe yourself. Make some plain flour bread, which is not white (that’s bleached flour), but a sort of beige, which is a sort of brown, is it not?
    Most “brown” breads get their colour via molasses or the addition of rye.
    Your “brown bread” means that all the bran is included. Yet you would remove the bran from rice?
    You’ll never know by arguing semantics. Have you tried it, like others in this column have?
    About Sol’s process, at the time of writing my book, I telephoned the head bakers of both Sol and Goanna Bakeries to elicit their dough-ferment time. After some discussion, in which he first said it was “left for many hours”, I eventually gleaned that he meant it was actually ONLY the sourdough starter itself which was long-fermented, which is how sourdough is made - quite normal, BUT the actual bread dough mix stood for an inadequate 2/3 hours. Goanna’s spiel was exactly the same.
    I will go thru that enquiry again, just in case there’s been a change recently.
    Thankyou,
    Love, Clive

  49. Dear Clive & All. I stopped making bread for a couple of months as I was so busy putting in and caring for my vegetable garden. I have been eating some good quality bread made from sprouts but they add other things also, such as concentrated gluten and a bunch of other stuff.

    Well, I can tell the difference. I get that sour taste in my mouth afterwards and the next morning, too. Back to Clive’s long-raised bread for us!!! - A. May.

  50. Hi Clive,
    thankyou for your advice.
    In your mention of seeds/nuts….is it alright to use seed oil. I am using flaxseed oil (omega 3) as i am a vegetarian. I now know not to use my soy milk. Does that include powered soy protien that i have been adding to fruit/yoghurt smoothies to add protien to my diet? The label says easily digestible, but would it contain the bad substances? I presume that the soy sausages etc i eat are no good as they would not be fermented.

    In regards to beans/legumes. I like my baked beans….navy beans. I contacted the company and they said the beans were soaked before they were cooked.
    I have chronic fatigue/chronic depression/chronic anxiety and a sore belly. I am hoping what you have said will help the way i feel.

    I started taking maca root, to theoretically help the fatigue and endocrine system, but just felt sick and kept feeling i was poisoning myself. The root is dried and powdered, so it would not fit the soak and cook regieme.

    thankyou again, Ingrid

  51. Thanks Clive - breadmaking is on my “when I have time” list of things I would love to do. In the meantime, I am forced to rely on commercially made sourdough breads like Sol Bakery so it’s great to have up to date info on their processing methods.
    Rice and wheat are entirely different grains so I don’t think they can be compared. I was merely making the comment that it’s very interesting that rice does traditionally seem to have been eaten with the bran largely removed whereas bread doesn’t seem to have the same history. I am a believer in traditions but I don’t know how traditional the brown vs. white issue is. There are some interesting letters
    on the Weston Price website about brown versus white rice.
    I was just putting it out there that I felt a little confused by the conflicting advice given by you and Sally Fallon. You recommend white and she recommends brown. But there’s no judgement there - just questions - and in the end, as you said, people have to try for themselves and see what suits them.

  52. INGRID,
    SEE MY RESPONSES IN * CAPITALS, ‘TWEEN THE LINES, AS IT WERE.

    Hi Clive,
    thankyou for your advice.
    * THAT’S A PLEASURE. I’M DOING MY THING.
    In your mention of seeds/nuts….is it alright to use seed oil. I am using flaxseed oil (omega 3) as i am a vegetarian.
    * FLAXSEED OIL GOES RANCID (=TOXIC, CARCINOGENIC) FAST IF NOT SOURCED FROM THE RIGHT PRODUCERS. ALL YOU GOTTA DO IS SAMPLE IT, AND IF IT LEAVES A BITTER TASTE, IT’S DEAD. IT WILL HARM YOU AND YOUR GUESTS. CHUCK IT. DO THIS WITH ALL OILS. ENSURE THAT ANY SEED OIL YOU BUY IS FRESH, COLD-PRESSED, NON-GMO, ORGANIC, AND ONLY FROM STORES WHO KEEP IT ON A COOL SHELF. EVEN THEN INGRID, DO NOT COOK (ESPECIALLY HARD AND LONG) WITH IT. THIS SIMPLY (& QUICKLY) CREATES THAT SAME RANCIDITY. WHY? BECAUSE OF THE LOW HEAT RESISTANCE IN ALL SEED AND GRAIN OILS, EVEN OLIVE OIL. OK, A LIGHT SAUTE, FINE, BUT THE BEST COOKING OILS ARE THOSE WITH THE GREATEST HEAT RESISTANCE, NAMELY ORGANIC MEAT LARDS, CLARIFIED BUTTER (GHEE), AND THE TOP COCONUT OILS - THE FABULOUS FATS OF TRADITION AND GOOD SENSE.
    THIS IS NOT SAYING THAT NUT/SEED OILS ARE NOT BRILLIANT AND DEEPLY DIVERSE. THEY ARE THAT. STELLAR! BUT BEST TO USE THEM RAW - IN SALADS, NEAT, WHATEVER.
    OR EAT THE NUT ITSELF - LONG-SOAKED.
    PITY YOU CAN’T TASTE MY FATTY BROTHS, GIRL. THEY NOURISH TO THE CORE. FOR A VEGO LIKE YOURSELF, COCONUT OIL IS PRIMO, AND IF YOU CAN ENJOY GHEE, YOU’VE GOT A VARIETY OF COOKING OILS AND FLAVOURS.
    BUT THEN THERE’S THE SHOPPING, FOR THE RIGHT COCONUT OIL (TROPICAL TRADITIONS BRAND), AND THE PURE GHEE (GANEESHA BRAND).
    I now know not to use my soy milk. Does that include powered soy protien that i have been adding to fruit/yoghurt smoothies to add protien to my diet?
    The label says easily digestible, but would it contain the bad substances? I presume that the soy sausages etc i eat are no good as they would not be fermented.
    * OTHER THAN QUALITY MISO, NATTOH, TEMPEH AND TAMARI, ESCHEW SOY ALTOGETHER.
    YES, AND ESPECIALLY INCLUDING THAT SOYA PROTEIN. I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF YOUR GUT WILL START TO FEEL A LOT BETTER WHEN YOU DO.
    With regards to beans/legumes. I like my baked beans….navy beans. I contacted the company and they said the beans were soaked before they were cooked.
    * IT’S NOT EASY TO PREPARE A MEMORABLE MEAL OF DIGESTIBLE, MELT-IN-THE-MOUTH BEANS AND PULSES. I DO IT, BUT IT TAKES 3 DAYS, WITH A LOT OF FOCUS, ATTENTION TO DETAIL, AND TRICKS. FOR THIS REASON, I RECKON YOU’RE RIGHT, THAT PRE-SOAKED, PRESSURE-COOKED, CANNED NAVY BEANS CAN BE A BLESSING. AND AS YOU SAY, YOU LIKED THEM!!
    I have chronic fatigue/chronic depression/chronic anxiety and a sore belly. I am hoping what you have said will help the way i feel.
    * WHAT I SAY CANNOT HELP THE WAY YOU FEEL. WHEN YOU TRUST WHAT YOU RECOGNIZE TO BE TRUE FOR YOU, AND DO IT, THERE’S THE REAL HELP. IT’S IN YOU.
    I started taking maca root, to theoretically help the fatigue and endocrine system, but just felt sick and kept feeling i was poisoning myself. The root is dried and powdered, so it would not fit the soak and cook regieme.
    * FORGET THESE SUPPLEMENTS FOR NOW, UNLESS YOU HAVE SOME FAVOURITES THAT AGREE WITH YOU. FAR BETTER THAT YOU GET THE NOURISHING ASPECT, THAT’S THE KITCHEN, TOGETHER.
    AND KEEP ASKING FOR IT. HA HA.
    thankyou again,
    Ingrid
    * LOVE,
    CLIVE

  53. FILIPPA,
    THE INSPIRATION FOR MY 2 BOOKS WAS PARTLY STIMULATED BY READING, IN 2003, NOT ONLY SALLY FALLON’S CLASSIC “NOURISHING TARDITIONS”, BUT ALSO A TINY, NO-LONGER-PUBLISHED PAPERBACK BRUTE OF A BOOK, “ONE MAN’S POISON”, BY AUSTRALIAN AMY MACGRATH.
    IT WAS THE LATTER WHICH GAVE ME THE CLARITY I HAVE ON WHEAT, GLUTEN, BRAN, BROWN, BREAD-MAKING, BLAH BLAH. AND SHE WORKED IT ALL OUT HERSELF, LEARNT IT ALL BY EXPERIENCE, FROM THE 60′S THRU TO 80′S - A GENIUS. IF YOU’D LIKE, I’LL SEND YOU THE CHAPTER I DEVOTE TO HER?
    SALLY’S WORK IS MONUMENTAL INDEED, MAJOR, I’M GRATEFUL TO HER, BUT AT THAT STAGE OF HER WRITING, SHE LACKED THE TOTAL PICTURE, WHICH AMY’S BOOK ROUNDED OUT FOR ME, AND 5 YEARS OF “DOING IT”, IN COMBO WITH A GROWING BAND OF EXPERIMENTAL, BIOLOGICAL BANDITS, HAS ONLY ENHANCED THAT.
    AND AS YOU ENDED, FILIPPA - “in the end, people have to try for themselves and see what suits them”.
    BAS.
    CIAO, CLIVE

  54. Hi Clive,
    in an article i read, the writer states that she makes tortillas with whey. The whey breaks down the phytates in the wheat. The dough is made the night before, and used in the morning for breakfast.

    As the flour needs yeast and long fermentation, would the whey really do the job?

  55. Hi Clive,
    can your nuts be put in a processor to make spreading paste? I love peanut paste.

  56. 56. Husky Bear
    Jul 7th, 2008 at 2:01 am

    Hi Clive,

    Can you tell me more about properly preparing vegetables and fruits? Which should be peeled and soaked? For how long? Many vegetables are in fact fruits - capsicum, for instance. I’ve never seen it skinned though. Is it better to skin? Should I soak it and how long? Or soak first and skin?

    How do you skin something like broccoli, or leafy vegetables? Also, I’ve heard that celery is tremedously hard to digest. How is it traditionally prepared? Are the leaves usually eaten?

    What’s the best way to cook vegetables to enhance the nutrients? Boil or steam? Some people cook fruit too. Is this detrimental?

    You did not mention raw meat in your posts. I’m interested in what you might know about it.

    Thanks!

  57. Howdy, Clive! You have me fascinated to know exactly what you mean when you say that beans require “… 3 DAYS, WITH A LOT OF FOCUS, ATTENTION TO DETAIL, AND TRICKS.”

    Is it really that hard? This is what I do: 1. Soak the beans for 24 hours or more. 2. Then of course rinse & sprout slightly, just a wee bit, which, depending on the variety of bean, could take from 12 hours to 48 hours. 3. Next, I try to remove some of the husks by floating them out. Easier for some varieties than others! 4. Then cook the beans on the stove for a bit. 5. Then add mustard powder, crushed tomato in any form, lots of sauteed onions & tamari. Other herbs & spices work fine, too - ginger powder, for instance.
    6. Bake in the oven for at least an hour, maybe more.

    Works for us! In the meantime, if you have a moment, I’d like to know your method; it may be an improvement on mine. Thanks. - Anna May.

  58. Ooops. Forgot something! Re above bean preparation: I also add some MOLASSES and/or bit of Succanat-type sugar. Jaggery if I have it works, too.

  59. Dear Ingrid,
    Forgive this opportunistic moment to make a joke, but I had to laugh at your questioning if my nuts could be put in a processor to make spreading paste. Ha ha. Don’t worry, it’s a common source of laffs.
    Well, the relevant answer is YES, they can, but only if the grinding action is slow. Otherwise the heat generated kills the essential oils once again. Peanuts are NOT a nut, they are a legume, like any other pea/bean, and so require the same sort of attention to detail when being prepared for eating. IE - long-soaking!!
    Most peanut butter I know is made from the raw peanut, slightly roasted - not anywhere the requirement to remove the natural toxic content. I have made fermented peanut butter from organic peanuts (a necessity for peanuts). Very different consistency to the usual, but scrumptious, and I would be making it commercially IF we could get guaranteed supplies of organic stock, but we canNOT.
    Remember, most commercial peanut pastes contain a very damaging percentage of soya bean, plus other nasties.
    About your flour question, that tortilla recipe is perfect. Any wheat flour dough requires a MINIMUM of 6 hours fermentation, and the longer the better. So sitting overnite is ideal. This is what I do with my bread, and I also add yoghurt to the mix, which IS whey + curd. The batch I made yesterday is so tasty. A tip - I soaked oats all day in water, and added it to the evening bread mix = wonderful texture and flavour.
    Soon you’ll be uttering loud YUMMMMS Ingrid.
    Love,
    Clive

  60. Husky Bear,
    Remember that fanatacism is more dangerous than phytates.
    What’s a fanatic? A fanatic would peel his broccoli.
    Root veges should be fine-peeled and soaked a few hours before cooking.
    All greens such as spinaches and brassicas are fine lightly steamed. Don’t eat these raw.
    Celery - just remove the strings that run along the stalk.
    The more central, tender leaves of salad greens such as lettuce, rukola
    (rocket), endive, etc are the best for raw consumption, and the addition of
    a good vinegar dressing helps to complete the pre-digestion process.
    About sprouts, I make a large bowl of fenugreek sprouts (excellent for
    general health, espec. diabtetes). When they are just shooting, I drizzle
    with umeboshi vinegar (say, 3/4 tablespoons, or cider/wine/ balsamic
    vinegars), give a good gentle stir to ensure the vinegar is evenly
    distributed, then put in a sealed glass jar in the fridge. This negates the
    anti-nutrients, slowly ferments, preserves and improves the sprouts, and gives great flavour.
    A zing in a sanger.
    They will last up to 2 weeks. No need for lotsa sprout jars running all the
    time. Do the same with all sprouted seeds (espec. alfalfa, to negate the
    toxin, canavanine).
    Tomatoes, capsicums - do what the Italians do - drop them into boiled water,
    and leave some minutes until the skin is easily peeled off, and eat the
    flesh raw, cooked or added to pickle ferments. Some people also remove the seeds.
    Eggplant needs more work - cut 1cm-thick slices of the raw eggplant, brush both sides generously
    with salt, throw all slices into a ceramic pot for a few hours, where a black toxic liquid oozes out.
    Then rinse in clean water for frying with ghee, whatever.
    My favourite way with veges though is to make preserves using whey/water, not vinegar, as the fermenting medium. Beautiful plumage.
    For the one and only traditional vegetable/fruit preserve recipes, I urge all people to get a copy of “Nourishing Traditions”. You won’t regret it. The recipes are numerous and fab.
    Fruits are fine raw. They have the lowest levels of anti-nutrients, and we need a minimum dosage of phytates anyway, to avoid calcium deposits. No soaking of fruit needed either. Which you peel is obvious - papayas, citrus, and thankfully, pineapples - if the skin is bitter remove it. There are bio-flavenoid benefits in the skins of apple, stone fruit, grapes, figs, etc. Check out fruit preserving with whey - it’s an excellent craft as well as nutrient enhancer.
    I pot-boil veges sometimes, in scant water, or steam - same same. Always cook slow, when it fits.
    And get 2 heat diffuser screens, to place between pot and fire. These are essential in a sloooow kitchen.
    I love them! Ha ha.
    It helps to know that the chlorophyll in greens survives up to 7 minutes of gentle simmer.
    Raw meat? There are many traditonal ways of preserving/fermenting raw meats, most notably in the sausage world. I have not had experience in this field, but it is attractive, and its wares extremely moreish and nutritious.
    Ciao,
    Clive

  61. Afternoon AM,
    Please invite me when you make your next bean goulash, sounds vunderbar. The combo looks superb.
    However, my focus is primarily about digestibilty.
    What I would do differently to your method is this:
    (Refer AM’s letter above)
    Point 1 - same same, but I would change the water each 12 hours, and. significantly, add fresh whey or even yoghurt to the final soak. Adds a cultural element that softens the beans tremendously.
    Point 2 - cool.
    Point 3 - yeah, ok.
    Point 4 - What means cook “a bit”? Then only 1 hour in the oven? Now girl, no matter how good it tastes, there’s no way you’ve achieved optimum digestibility for the beans. At this stage, my focus is still the beans. All the other stuff can come later. Let’s get these beans to melt-in-mouth-ness, lovely-in-the gutness first, THEN intro the flavours.
    So here is when I trot out my 2 heat diffusers, and cook those fokkers all day, at lowest flame.
    This is the point! This is the magic. Do you have the time, or the inclination, to go even slower?
    Smoooerth,
    Clive

  62. hi can someone suggest to me a first time bread maker the EXACT WAY to make clives bread? i have no idea.also does anyone here no of any perth bakeries preferably south of river that sell this type of bread incase i cant make it im new ot all this so have no ingredients,no bread making utensils etc so i need help from scratch
    please

    reading everyone responese has left me unsure of wether to buy brown or white rice etc? whats more healthier or better for you????and why. and whats everyone views here on dairy food as i love cheese,eggs, milk etc. should i drink full cream or the lite stuff… but like usual biggest issue is were can i find any of this stuff in perth .

    any help id be greatful
    thanks

  63. Thanx AM, I like your style too - very open.
    Yes, you’d be right about beans actually sprouted requiring less cooking time, but I still feel that your process is too brief. But there’s a surefire tester. How’s the prevailing winds up your way darlin’?
    Fart barometer tells all.
    I soak my beans until the budding, pre-sprout stage, then cook.
    During the fermenting (the soaking), what we’re ideally looking to create is a lactic acid environment, for that is optimum condition for the proliferation of the enzyme acticity needed to break down the nutrients, such as proteins,carbs, etc. It’s CRUCIAL to remember here that fermentation NOT ONLY removes unwanted natural toxins such as phytates, BUT ALSO, and significantly, converts the proteins, etc to a pre-digested state - proteins (viz a viz gluten) which are toxic, allergenic if not given the treatment. What happens is that complex proteins disintegrate into their much simpler constituents, namely the amino acids, making those essentials easily absorbed. Unfermented proteins and carbs cause untold illnesses and obesity. This is why we need TIME.
    And this is ALSO why, on the final soak (after changing the water maybe 3 times over 2/3 days), on that final soak that whey/yoghurt is used, because it greatly enhances the lactic acid environment, as opposed to the acetic acid melange you create by using vinegar. The latter is best applied when meals are on the plate, only rarely for cooking. Another bonus is that lactOse in the whey is converted to much more body-friendly lactAse, and leaning more towards alkalinity. It’s indeed an alchemical brew.
    So, yes, your kefir whey is excellent. What have you done with that in the past?
    There’s another important tweak to the cooking that I omitted last time.
    As the beans are slow-cooking, all day at minimum flame, with 2 diffuser pads between pot and fire (get them at hardware, you’ll be pleasantly rewarded. You can ONLY, REALISTICALLY, cook sloooowly with such aids), ok, back to the stove, and you’ll find mixed detritus always floating to the surface of the bean pot - shed skins, assorted cellulose, and thick scum - all pushing up and wanting EXIT. Scrape this off regularly, and eventually you’re left with the pure, essential, digestible bean. Avoid stirring so that this facet can surface.
    Add your herbs, veges in the last coupla hours. And yes, you can still put it all in an oven casserole.
    You said “I can cook slower than ever if need be”. Well the need IS there, we don’t realize just how far outa sync with nourishment and its associated chronological requirements we have strayed. Go there AM.
    Love,
    Clive

  64. Hi Clive and all,
    Glad I make some people laugh. Need it more often. I have always appreciated Clives’ humour as well.

    I do not travel, so Clive if you are ever up Beenleigh way I would love to make your acquaintance.
    Please people what does ‘&amp’ mean?

    I am a total novice to this bread making, so please allow for my ignorance.

    In the tortilla/whey dough I mentioned, one site said he uses vinegar. Vinegar ferments flour????? Would it not leave a funny taste? Can I add raising agent to the tortilla dough next day with egg and flavouring to make biscuits? You said I could make biscuits/cake with the bread dough. Do I add egg and liquid to make a cake?

    Where to I buy whey from? Where do I obtain bakers yeast? At the health food shop they had plain w/m (whole meal?) flour. In smaller print it said unbleached. Is this right, or does it need sieving?
    Why is molasses used in the dough, and is it needed? Is yoghurt needed in the dough mix? While dough is fermenting can it sit in a metal container? What happens if the dough on rising hits the damp cloth? How do I avoid this if it is detrimental?

    When you say granulated yeast – half level teaspoon, do you mean a level teaspoon, or half that amount?
    When storing sour dough yeast in glass jars can the lids be metal. Eg; normal jam jar.
    Yours with many thanks
    Ingrid

  65. Dear Sharon,
    Yes, it can be daunting when you read a lotta new info and wonder where and how to go with it.
    I assume you’ve read my bread recipe above. I recommend you just start, even if it’s a disaster, start and learn, it’s a wonderful craft. And make some with wholemeal and some with plain flour to get your OWN experience.
    If you don’t have bread tins, mould small balls of your dough onto an oiled flat tray and you’ll at least have bread rolls. I’ll talk you thru it too. Keep asking.
    About milk, I’m including here the relevant chapter “Kow Tow, Brown Cow”, excerpt from my book “Whole don’t mean Wholesome - A Love of Fermentation and all Things Sloooow”. (Note that it appears without any emphases, italics, bolds, etc.).
    Love and luck,
    Clive

    KOW-TOW, BROWN COW

    While it’s true with regards to plant foods that “whole don’t (necessarily) mean wholesome”, for milk and honey the opposite applies.
    Raw, whole, is best. Real milk, real honey. And we do have the stomach for it.
    Milk is a divine traditional food in its natural unprocessed form, from animals that graze organic pastures, and which are not loaded with anti-biotics, hormones and other chemicals.
    Till age 10, I was raised on this real, creamy milk. There was never a milk-related illness amongst the 8 kids in our family until when, quite suddenly, and at the same time quick-recipe bread emerged, pasteurised milk was foisted upon us. That was the 1950’s, when community health in general began its complex demise.

    I am fortunate to be a baby boomer, because I can remember when food was very uncomplicated, and so there exists for me significant opportunity for contrast and observation. Most modern kids have only ever known supermarkets and fast foods.
    To them, “health foods” are in the “Special K” and fruit/vege aisles at Woolworths, and I feel deeply for their situation. I understand why they are getting fat and ill at younger and younger ages.
    They think even low-fat milk is a health food, poor bastards.
    The only item I can buy at a supermarket is, appropriately, toilet paper.

    Since the 1950’s, real milk, butter, cream and yoghurt have actually been banned from public sale. There’s a law against it! Absurd, yet true. Instead, we have the preposterous situation where we must choose between two demons – pasteurised or homogenised milks. And meanwhile, all manner of cancer and obesity-causing margarines have full access to the public domain, and are advertised as “health foods”, fully permitted of course by our public health watchdogs, which are actually nothing more than Big Grocery lapdogs.
    Nevertheless, smart, hip dairymen of today get around the law by selling real milk, real cream and real butter as cosmetics, such as “bath milk”, “body cream” and “body butter”. Sad, but brilliant.
    (In OZ, look for “Cleopatra” and “Farmer Pat” brands, or you can often find excellent unpasteurised local goat’s milks.)

    Real (raw) milk contains its own inbuilt protection via its inherent lactic-acid producing bacteria that guard against pathogens, bacteria that is completely obliterated via the pasteurisation and homogenisation processes.
    The only outbreaks of salmonella from milk in the last 50 years have come from pasteurised milk. Why? Because there hasn’t been any friggin’ raw milk since then!
    Real milk’s saturated fats in the diet improve the body’s utilisation of essential fatty acids and protect them from rancidity. Raw animal fats – in raw butter, milk and cream – contain a substance called the Wulzen Factor, the “anti-stiffness” factor, which protects both humans and animals from degenerative arthritis, cataracts, calcification of the pineal gland and hardening of the arteries. Pasteurisation destroys this Wulzen Factor.
    Homogenisation annihilates it.

    Several African tribes, most notably the Masai, have diets containing abnormally high raw milk intake, as well as meat and fermented blood foods. The Masai consume creamy buffalo milk to the equivalent of 1 kilo of pure butter per day!! They are superb physical specimens, remarkably tall, proud, strong-boned, have white teeth to die for, zero heart or cholesterol problems, nor asthma.
    If the Masai were forced to pasteurise their milk for the past 50 years, as we have been, they’d be extinct.

    Pasteurised milk (heated to kill bacteria) contains split proteins (making the whole complex of amino acids less available), destroyed enzymes (which are the very elements required to assist the assimilation of milk’s unique nutrients!), reduced nutrient content, hardened calcium, all of which renders the user vulnerable to various pathogens and diseases.
    Every commercial yoghurt and cheese in Oz is manufactured from this gunk.
    (Late news: The Victorian gov. has just passed a law enabling manufacture of raw milk cheeses, so long as they are well aged. Quite an amazing development, given the current political climate. )
    “Organic” milk, once pasteurised, is simply a lesser evil, still injurious to health.

    Lactase (the natural counter to lactose) and lipase (the fats worker) are just two of the artful “ases,” the many enzymes present in raw milk, which are destroyed by heat.
    Supporters of pasteurisation make the ridiculous claim that “heating for only 15 seconds at 71?C. can’t do that much damage”. Naïve crap.
    Consider that the pasteurisation formula is precisely calculated to kill all bacteria in the milk. They would like to kill only the baddies, which are anyway adequately dealt with in raw milk, but unfortunately the goodies must die too.
    Result = lifelessness, dynamics deleted.

    So we have a law requiring all people to drink only this hogwash, and making it a crime to access the original, the unadulterated milk!
    Hellooo!

    Neither do our bosom buddies, the family of enzymes in milk, survive 15 seconds at 72?C. - such as enzyme lipase, without which the digestion and utilisation of the considerable, and highly beneficial butterfat in milk is severely hampered - butterfat that is still present after either pasteurisation or homogenisation (yet by now grossly distorted by the heat and having its precious fat-converting enzyme destroyed anyway!).
    What a burden.
    Homogenised milk compounds the dairy atrocity even further. It is manufactured via a process where fat particles in the cream are strained through tiny pores under pressure. The once highly nutritious fat quickly becomes rancid and oxidised. The process makes the fat particles so small that they stay suspended in the milk and can enter directly into the bloodstream, creating all sorts of complications for the heart and circulation.

    Real milk assists the heart, it don’t create the hard fat and circulatory problems attributed to milk.
    Distorted milks do that job nicely, they must, ‘cause that’s all we’ve friggin’ drunk for the last 50 years!
    Nevertheless, the latter are the “legal”, authorised, recommended, “healthy” milk forms, while the real milk, the right stuff, is outlawed!
    Struuth! It’s little wonder we have a world epidemic of lactose intolerance, asthma in kids, and osteoporosis from undigested calcium, when 99.9% of western populations have imbibed these mutilated milks for over 50 years.
    Little wonder, too, that we question the motives, cynicisms, education, boardroom and business alliances, jobs for the boys, and bank balances of the bureaucratic buffoons and bandits who try to dictate our diets.

    One significant event that led to pasteurisation becoming law occurred in the USA in the early 20th. century.
    A main source of alcohol at that time was Cuba’s rum. When its import was suddenly terminated, enterprising New Yorkers began fermenting their own grains in huge warehouses. The new alcohol flowed, but so too did large quantities of waste matter from these stills.
    So they (probably the Irish) got the bright idea to create, also within Gotham’s walls, large dairy herds that fed upon the toxic grain offal. The resulting milk was sold to the public who began to fall ill in large numbers. The health officials did not of course blame the noxious, rotting cow feed and its ruinous effect upon the milk, let alone the appalling, grassless living conditions the cows had to bear, but rather the old knee-jerk enemy, bacteria. A local ordinance was introduced that all such milk had to be pasteurised, and from this weird quirk of fate, that statute has spread all over the western world.
    And why has it spread?
    Certainly not primarily because of the threat of bacteria, no, because what they accidentally discovered at that time is that pasteurisation (and much later, homogenisation) confer longer shelf life upon all dairy products, and less transporting losses through agitation, hence the chief reason for the bastardisation of milk was, and still is, cynically, economic.

    No matter how spotlessly clean a modern dairy may be today, we are condemned, by law and by calculated corruption of public information, to a life without the joys and benefits of this fine, white, whole creamy food and its cheesy-rich by-products.
    However, an upside of these anomalies is a clear rise in the numbers of people raising their own cows and goats, as well as forming co-operative ownerships of milking animals. Some smaller farms are specialising in real milk products, selling locally via all sorts of different ploys to circumvent the statutes. There are signs that the cycle has already begun, however faintly, to turn from conglomerate control to the local dairyman/baker once again.
    Contact Joanne or Wes Hay at Nourished Magazine for info on the raw milk herdshare program for all Oz.

    Millions of economically displaced rural people all over the world are flooding into cities, creating enormous pressures upon food quality and controls, and yet it’s the very decentralised system they are being economically forced to abandon - with small localised businesses and farmlets, yes, just like the tribal patterns of yore - which are the essential ingredients of sane, sensible, healthy living.
    Greater centralization = greater dependencies, upon mass-produced, long-life, crap foods, interfering bureaucracies and human-herd control by lash-wielding totalitarian governments.

    Several years ago, while domiciled in India, I was in doubt about milk myself.
    Because of the increase in mucous it sometimes caused in me, but also because of my lifelong and passionate love for cowjuice, I asked my excellent ayurvedic (traditional medicine) doctor if whole milk was a good food or not (remember that the ayurvedic tradition is 10,000 years old). His reply was: “Raw milk is one of the best foods for humans, especially children, and there is a very simple way to counter any mucous reaction from heated milk – by adding ginger or turmeric powder. You ask how Indians can drink so much marsala chai and not get mucous? It’s the mix of spices, especially the ginger.” I could get only pasteurised milk at that time, so I tried his advice with immediate positive results. Mix a little organic ginger powder at those times when you enjoy heated milk. Or turmeric for a more savoury influence.
    However, now that I partake only of raw milk, cream, yoghurts and cheeses, there is zero mucous problem to counter.

    There are other traps to consider when appraising milk.
    The monstrosity that is Monsanto developed, over 20 years ago, a hormone therapy to administer to cows for increasing milk production.
    The drug is called recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone (rBGH).
    In the early 80’s, when Monsanto rolled out the first experimental rBGH dairy products, it sold them illegally to students, staff, faculty and patients at the University of Wisconsin.
    At the time, Dr. David Kronfeld showed that much of the company’s publicised research was fraudulent. He was ridiculed by the drug companies, demoted, and his career almost destroyed, but time has proven Kronfeld correct.
    The hormone treatment has now been definitely linked to elevated levels, in milk consumers, of insulin-like Growth Factor One, a precursor of cancer.
    20 years and indeterminable human damage later, large US dairies are suddenly declaring intentions to make their milk rGBH-free.
    Meanwhile, Monsanto’s public relations machine tries to salvage product, prestige and profits by running a smear campaign against hormone-free milk!

    HONEY
    That same ayurvedic doctor who advised me on milk also stressed that it was ancient practise not to heat honey above 70°C. (Another point proven by Amy MacGrath via her kids’ allergic reactions). Why? For the same reasons not to heat milk – to avoid the killing of honey’s rich and precious enzymes and nutrients; to prevent it from becoming just another lifeless, debilitating sugar.
    Heating only serves to make honey, and foods eaten with it, more difficult to digest.
    As with milk, honey is also heated for commercial reasons – to give a longer shelf life, even colouring and consistency, non-candying, etc. But fortunately it is rarely taken above 70°C.
    Nevertheless, bees are a dying race because of diminishing flora, and many hives now require anti-biotics to survive certain times of the year. Like people, even the bees’ immune systems are becoming screwed – via drugs, chemicals, deforestation, and increasingly intensive apiary practices.
    In early 2007, reports of massive bee colony disappearances and demises, especially in North America, are suddenly and frequently appearing. It is thought to be due, on top of years of coping with pesticides in pollens, to the new and highly negative impact of GM crops. Then in another report, the blame is extended to include the proliferating and highly disturbing frequencies of mobile phones.
    Albert Einstein once said: “If the bees ever die off, man has four years to live.”
    Well, we are losing them now, bigtime.

    CHEESE
    For 3,000 years Europeans have been crafting superb cheeses from raw milk - cultural and traditional works of art, the cream of which are Italian Reggiano Parmagiano (real parmesan) and Pecorino Romano, French Roquefort, Swiss Gruyere and Emmental, and English farmhouse cheddar. And there are many more raw cow milk cheeses, as well as the leaner cheeses, like feta, the best of which are made from whole goat and sheep milks. One of the finest unpasteurised cheeses available in Oz is called Sarachino, from Sicily. It is made from whole sheep’s milk, yet is yellow, firm, and has a delicious, cheddary taste.

    From the natural enzymes that abound in raw milk, plus t-i-m-e, and location (cool underground cellars), these rare and ancient cheeses develop not only their unique characteristics, but also very clear nutritional gifts – rich in calcium, phosphorus, magnesium and proteins, plus vitamins riboflavin (B2) and B12, B6, A and D.
    A mother lode.
    The enzymatic interaction between indigenous raw milk microflora and starter bacteria is extremely important in the ripening process, in the ultimate flavour and texture of the cheese.
    And of course, the pastures and climates of the different regions determine the various flavours and richness of cream in raw milks.
    Pasteurisation of milk means that none of the essential enzymes and microflora remain alive, so how’s a pasteurised cheese ever gonna cut it?

    Oz cheesemakers (excepting now the Oz state of Victoria) can, by law, make cheeses only from pasteurised or homogenised milks. Goes a long way towards explaining why bland, locally made parmesan, and most other cheeses have never gotten close to cutting it. Not only taste-wise, but nutritionally as well.
    In fact, they are harmful, and become progressively more damaging the more they are processed.
    Fortunately, we can still import most of the best of the world’s real cheeses into Oz, but already there are signs that certain cheeses are being denied entry, or are being threatened with irradiation treatment. Typically, it is extremely difficult to access such information from the relevant govt. agencies.

    The USA (and Victoria, Oz) currently allow domestic production of raw milk cheeses provided they have matured for at least 60 days. An extremely widespread and vibrant industry has evolved in the US, which now produces cheeses comparable to the best in Europe. The USA also permits the import of foreign cheeses.
    But neither, perhaps, for much longer.
    There are moves to have all raw milk-based imports banned from entering USA, and to force raw milk products out of the home market. Oz is a signatory to the very same WTO-sponsored treaties that require this absurdity. So too Big Europe.
    Pasteurisation lobbies stem partly from germ-paranoid groups, afraid of listeria and salmonella bacteria, but which are manipulated by, and find voice and power in multi-national, vested interest groups – companies such as Kraft and Nestle. These two rapacious junk food giants, despite being competitors, recently joined forces to lobby hard for raw milk’s demise. I can only imagine their motive to be the hope that all cheeses may become as wimpish and sickly as their own cheeses, so that they can more easily control the market.
    Now they have a firm friend in Codex, meaning that the already considerable interference in our freedom of dairy choice will worsen, with even more hurdles to cross.
    The Codex Alimentarius Commission (CAC), which is parented and backed by the World Trade Organization (WTO), and of course Big Biz, are responsible for creating a foods standards program, regulating foodstuffs and food supplements traded around the world.

    The CAC is on a malevolent mission – oh yes, of course it presents the face of a beneficent saint, but the core is rotten - murderer of wholesome food, assassin of natural supplementation, slayer of humans by globalist laws, and all the time hand in glove with Big Pharma and Big Grocery.
    Codex is a part of the super-bureaucracies about which visionary author George Orwell grimly prophesised in his novel, “1984”, and against which even Monty Python’s Terry Gilliam humorously warned us in his brilliant 1985 movie, “Brazil”.
    A current CAC proposal, now adopted by WTO, includes a rule, suggested by the US, which requires member countries to make only pasteurised milk cheeses for world trade. Members would then have to close their borders to the importation of raw milk cheeses, as a path to eventually closing down indigenous raw cheese production completely, in all countries.
    Supporting this law in the USA, the National Cheese Institute joined the fray, recommending mandatory pasteurisation of all milks for cheese. Even the countries that produce the truly great raw milk cheeses are signatories to the same new WTO treaties, so there will soon come a time when France has to confront the “pasteurise or perish” dictate in relation to production of its own iconic Roquefort cheese, England its farmhouse cheddar. Can you imagine the Italians accepting changes like this to their beloved Parmagiano?
    Unfortunately, it appears that even a choice will not be an option, because of the very real threat (read blackmail) of international WTO-based trade sanctions against offending, “non-harmonising” (Codex’s own term) nations!

    Patrick Rance, a French scientist, and a champion of raw milk cheese, has profoundly explored the incidence of listeria and salmonella in milks. His careful research refuted the argument that raw milk was responsible for cases of listeriosis.
    His evidence clearly showed that pasteurised milk cheese is most at risk, that “pasteurisation, far from being the remedy, leaves an open field for listeria monocytogenes to invade and conquer.”

    Pasteurised milk cheeses are basically junk foods, lifeless, and infinitely more dangerous, pathogen-wise, than raw milk cheeses.
    Nutritionally also, it’s like real chalk and real cheese.
    It is recommended that any cheeses in our diets be raw milk varieties, which means any of the imported masterpieces listed above.
    Whilst the best Parmesans and Roqueforts are relatively expensive, they are so nutrient-dense that you don’t need to consume large amounts. Moderation and subtlety are required. And besides, the comparative prospects of illness and associated expenses of consuming unreal junk cheeses are high.
    Long may the indigenous, original-recipe production of the great real cheeses continue, and their entry not be curtailed, both into Australia and elsewhere in the world.
    And long may the Codex Police reel under prolonged and spirited opposition wrought by folk who appreciate the fine and delicate differences, tastes and joys in life, not to mention fine health.
    (To keep abreast of Codex matters, go to http://www.iahf.com and http://www.alliance-natural-health.org.)
    YOGHURT
    Another superb lacto-fermented product, produced by the introduction of a culture (lactobacilli, such as acidophilous) to milk.
    To create your own real yoghurt, the real milk is first heated to a temperature that the human finger can tolerate. What pasteurisation does is to heat the milk beyond this point long enough to kill all microorganisms, to destroy the actual life in the milk.
    Rule of thumb: If it won’t burn your thumb, it won’t kill beneficial bacteria.
    Then add the kefir or acidophilous culture, or some already existing yoghurt, wrap the container up in thick cloth, and leave in a slightly warm (not hot) place – such as near great granny’s forever-warm wood stove, or a nice sunny nook, or in front of a low-temp. blow heater.
    Time of readiness will vary according to conditions – at least a few hours. Check regularly, and when the separation into curds and whey is complete, when it has become a soft junket, refrigerate.
    Left too long at room temperature, the yoghurt will become lumpy, like cottage cheese (yet still a fine food). The ideal result will be quite watery when compared to artificially thickened commercial yoghurts. Later, if you like the yoghurt thicker, strain off some of the liquid, the whey, thru a fine cotton cheesecloth, and use the whey in vege, nut and fruit ferments, in bread doughs, or just drink it. A wonderful food on its own.

    Naturally, there are no unpasteurised yoghurts in the marketplace, not even under an alias (such as “Sour Unpasteurised Shaving Cream”). The only pasteurised brand I’ve found that does not use gross, indigestible thickeners such as powdered skim milk or milk solids, is B.D., from a biodynamic dairy. This is the brand I use when my own whole milk yoghurt production has stalled. Making raw yoghurt is very enjoyable, also cheaper and healthier.

    An interesting fact is that kefir (a delicious and unique type of yoghurt) culture will not perform anywhere near as well in pasteurised milk as it will in raw milk.
    “Give us good food or it’s a go-slow.”
    It’s no different with vegetable ferments. Unless the substrate is of high quality, rich in life and nutrients, with no trace of pesticides, the ferment may not activate at all, as the lactobacilli that do all the converting work thrive only on excellent nutrients.
    Failing this excellence, dormancy is the preferred state.
    I can relate.

    GHEE
    A totally fat-free diet will accelerate aging of the skin, nerves and brain cells, but the fats we employ must be the right kind.
    Without the good oils, fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E and K will not be absorbed and stomach linings not protected. Similarly, cholesterol is essential in the body to build membrane (the cell’s brain) tissue, and to maintain bile and hormone balance. Cholesterol is harmful when it is damaged by free radicals, leading to clogged arteries.

    Considering all this, one of the most valuable and tastiest cooking oils is ghee, or clarified butter.
    Ghee bestows the best qualities of essential fatty acids without the problems of oxidised cholesterol, transfatty acids or hydrogenated fats. It is resistant to free radical damage, and is salt and lactose-free.
    Not common in western kitchens, ghee achieves revered status in India, as many things do, but there are occasionally good grounds for veneration, and ghee qualifies.

    Ghee is the pure oil of butter, in which the lactose and other milk solids have been scrupulously removed after the gently heated butter has become clear and golden.
    The process also evaporates any water content, making ghee light, pure and resistant to spoilage. Ghee has an amazingly long shelf-life, and it don’t need refrigeration!! The purer it is made, the less chance of rancidity.
    And you create a far far healthier substance than the original pasteurised butter was, whereas unpasteurised butter is a superb food.

    Indians keep ghee in family vaults, like westerners do with wines, for it has enormous sentimental and even antique value, as well as improving with age. At one Indian home I was granted the privilege of seeing and tasting a 50 year-old ghee.
    A wholly holy moment.

    Ghee has an extremely high heat tolerance (as coconut oil does), and does not smoke in cooking. Also, less quantity of ghee is required than other cooking oils.
    Imported ghees can be found in any Indian/South Asian grocery, but of course they are vulnerable according to the quality and/or pesticide/chemical content of the original milk source. And be wary of labels that do not claim “pure butter oil”, etc, as there are artificial ghees out there that are made by hydrogenating vegetable oils - harmful crap indeed.
    There’s a superb organic homemade brand (“Gheeneshe”) available in the Byron Bay area. Or, make your own thus:
    1) Gently heat organic, unsalted butter at medium heat in copper-based steel or ceramic saucepan until it bubbles or boils. Double boiler is best, or a heat diffuser between pot and flame.
    2) Reduce heat to low, and continue cooking, uncovered, to evaporate all h2o, until the clear, golden colour is achieved.
    3) Carefully remove the milk solids that float on the surface.
    4) Cool it, and store in a dry container.
    If the ghee spits and crackles when you cook with it, it still contains water. No problem; just let it cook a little longer next time. Don’t use wet spoons when taking ghee from its pot, as moisture is the enemy of its long-life preservation.
    Then use it to fry eggs and meat, etc., or add to soups, stews, bean dishes, sauces for robust body and taste.
    Ghee is another example of the positive ways in which milk can be used.

    Lactose-intolerant people say milk is the problem, but I would strongly suggest that it’s the gross treatment of milk and milk products that is the true culprit.
    Lactose-sensitive folk of today must be allergic to pasteurised/homogenised milks and associated products, ’cause that’s all there’s been for 50 years!
    They have never had the opportunity to sample real milk and real yoghurt, let alone to determine if it’s objectionable or not, because real dairy has been banned for 50 years!!
    That very same 50-year period has seen a tremendous rise in numbers of bronchial, asthmatic, sinusitic and other hyper-allergenic, dairy-related ailments.

    What people know as milk today is not milk; what is irresponsibly presented to our kids as the “health food of a nation” is but a harmful shadow of its former, whole self. Entire generations have never tasted real milk. Entire generations have been suffering
    the debilitating effects of grossly inferior and corrupted cow-juice.
    Many people are aware of this, and yet unaware of the beauty of raw milk, so they rush to judgement and jam all milk into the one derogatory “danger-lactose” pigeon-hole, like they mistakenly do with wheat when gluten disturbs.

    And not only do they deny themselves the experience and manifold benefits of some absolutely key and delicious foods, they also turn to fake saviours to fill the hole, as it were, ending up with diabolical alternatives such as the ubiquitous soya (and other grain) “milks”, unknowingly delivering themselves just another nail in the coffin.

  66. Hi Clive…..again.
    Excuse me if i am being ‘thick’ here, but i need to get this straight in my head.
    Do i add the oats to the bread dough, when making bread, when the yeast is added to the flour, or at the final knead before going to the oven?

    I love honey and oat bread. Do i use honey instead of molassess?

    I also love the heavier type of rye bread, but not the rock solid type. Would i use 80% rye and 20% wheat?
    many thanks again
    ingrid

  67. hi clive were i can find this step by step recipe?to make bread
    i havnt read it. thanks for all the info. my biggesty challenge is were to find this organic stuff, particuarly fruit/veg,milk,cheese etc not much of it in my dull state..WA . do you no of any? or a good site i can visit to search for such products like mentioned, as im dying to go organic but impossible if you cant find anywhere to buy it. interesting about margarine im so not buying that anymore. i love honey cheese milk etc so if i could buy these in more pure form id be wrapped. can i ask do you drink tap water? or bottled etc?
    an why does everyone take cod live oil whats it benefits along with things like multivitamins do you think they are neccassary?

    thanks again for all you help…great

  68. * INGRID, SOME SUGGESTIONS HERE BETWEEN YOUR LINES.
    Clive and all,
    Glad I make some people laugh. Need it more often. I have always appreciated Clives’ humour as well.
    I do not travel, so Clive if you are ever up Beenleigh way I would love to make your acquaintance.
    Please people what does ‘&amp’ mean?
    * THANX, MIGHT HAVE A CUPPA WITH YOU EN ROUTE TO BRISVEGAS ONE DAY. “&amp” IS SIMPLY AN ERROR IN THE TRANSIT FROM OUTSIDE COMPUTER TO THIS SITE.
    I am a total novice to this bread making, so please allow for my ignorance.
    * I LOVE NOVICES. HA HA. A NUN-JOKE.
    In the tortilla/whey dough I mentioned, one site said he uses vinegar. Vinegar ferments flour????? Would it not leave a funny taste? Can I add raising agent to the tortilla dough next day with egg and flavouring to make biscuits? You said I could make biscuits/cake with the bread dough. Do I add egg and liquid to make a cake?
    * FORGET ABOUT VINEGAR, YOU DON’T NEED IT, YOU DON’T NEED WHEY, YOU DON’T NEED ANYTHING BUT FLOUR AND WATER TO CREATE A FERMENTATION. ALL ELSE ARE SIMPLY AIDS, FLAVOURS, TWEAKS. LOOK INGER, BEFORE YOU ASK ANY MORE RECIPE QUESTIONS - GOD, TORTILLAS, CAKES, ETC - YOU GOTTA GO OUT AND GET A COPY OF “NOURISHING TRADITIONS”. I THINK YOU CAN EVEN PURCHASE IT FROM THIS SITE. IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR YOU. THE RECIPES ARE SPOT-ON. BAS.
    Where to I buy whey from?
    * STOP FUSSING ABOUT WHEY FOR NOW, AND JUST USE YOGHURT. WHEY WAY LATER AS YOU PICK IT UP. THEN YOU WILL MAKE YOUR OWN WHEY, YOU’LL SEE.
    Where do I obtain bakers yeast?
    * H/F STORE USUALLY.
    At the health food shop they had plain w/m (whole meal?) flour. In smaller print it said unbleached. Is this right, or does it need sieving?
    * NO, THAT’S IT!! YOU GOT IT, NO SIEVING REQUIRED. ACHA BABA.
    Why is molasses used in the dough, and is it needed? Is yoghurt needed in the dough mix? While dough is fermenting can it sit in a metal container? What happens if the dough on rising hits the damp cloth? How do I avoid this if it is detrimental?
    * NO, MOLASSES NOT NEEDED, YOGHURT NEITHER, GINGER POWDER IS! USE SOME HONEY ALSO IF YOU LIKE THAT. YES, IN A STEEL OR CERAMIC POT WITH LID. YOUR DOUGH SHOULD FILL LESS THAN HALF ITS CONTAINER, AS IT WILL RISE ABOUT 80%. AND IF IT “TOUCHES CLOTH”, AS IT WERE, NO PROBS.
    When you say granulated yeast – half level teaspoon, do you mean a level teaspoon, or half that amount?
    * HALF MEANS HALF.
    When storing sour dough yeast in glass jars can the lids be metal. Eg; normal jam jar.
    * YUP - BONE DRY.
    Excuse me if i am being ‘thick’ here, but i need to get this straight in my head.
    * DARLING, YOU CAN BE AS THICK AS YOU LIKE, THAT’S YOUR CHARM, KEEP ASKIN.
    Do i add the oats to the bread dough, when making bread, when the yeast is added to the flour, or at the final knead before going to the oven?
    * THE SOAKED OATS GO INTO THE WHOLE DOUGH MIX, ALL TOGETHER, BEFORE YOU DO THE FIRST KNEAD.
    I love honey and oat bread. Do i use honey instead of molassess?
    I also love the heavier type of rye bread, but not the rock solid type. Would i use 80% rye and 20% wheat?
    * 80/20 WILL BE PRETTY DARK AND HEAVY, BECAUSE RYE HAS NEGLIGIBLE GLUTEN, BUT YOU EXPERIMENT WITH THE RYE, AND TELL ME. I’M NOT WRITING ALL THIS SHIT AND NOT GET FEEDBACK, OK?
    many thanks again
    ingrid
    * YOU 2

  69. Great letter to Sharon. Re bees - those are imported honeybees who have all the problems. There are such things as wild bees a.k.a. mason bees or orchard bees. I have seen them on our country property. They live in holes in wood, or you can make a “bee condo” for them. http://gardening.wsu.edu/library/inse006/inse006.htm

  70. Sharon, we too would love to see a website where you can source all these wonderful Nourishing ingredients. In fact, that’s why we created the Nourished MarketPlace. We need people in WA (infact, all over Australia) to help us make this THE resource online for the Nourishing lifestyle. If you’re interested in helping us and earning some Nourishing dollars, check out our offer and let us know what you think.

  71. Sharon,
    Send me your e-mail address, and I’ll send you the BREAD recipe.
    Ask your local deli to get Saracino cheese. It’s a Sicilian sheep milk cheese, raw, but it has a cheddar colour, texture and flavour. Fantastic. There’s a supplier in Melbourne I believe.
    Yes, I drink tap water, but after it’s been thru a simple ceramic filter.
    Forget cod liver oil, the sea is too polluted with mercury to trust that now. Liver is where such toxins are stored.
    Until you DO get your food thing together and understnad more on nutrition, a good multi-vit can be a helpful
    bridge. Don’t fret, tension makes toxins too. Enjoy your discovery.
    Love,
    Clive

  72. Hi all,
    I made my first bread. I wanted honey and oat bread. I had on hand 1kg commercial (supermarket) brand plain unbleached wholemeal flour, which I sieved and threw out large bran flakes.

    I made up the yeast granule mix as per recipe and used half of it for the amount of flour I had. I put the other half of the yeast mix in the frig. Can it still be used for another batch of bread? I added one cup of soaked rolled oats to the mix, and used honey instead of molasses. Needed triple the honey as it did not have the flavour.

    The dough doubled overnight, I readied it for two loaf tins and let it double for an hour in warm place. I baked for 40 mins and it was hard and hollow sounding.

    The bread was awful. It was not ‘light’. Much to compact…’dense’. It tasted yucky. It was too whole mealy as well. It looked a bit like the bread made from gluten free flour.
    What went wrong?

    Biscuits…..
    Another disaster. I wanted anzac biscuits. I put the flour, oats and sugar to ferment with water. I then later added the other ingredients and baked. Result…soggy, tasteless yuck.
    Ingrid

  73. Ingrid,
    Sounds like your mixes are too damp. When you kneaded the bread dough in the am, was it stretchy, adhesive, and not sticking to your fingers? Did you add salt? Yoghurt?
    Clive

  74. hi clive my email address is quartermile888@yahoo.com.au for your bread recipe and instructions

    thanks

  75. Dear Clive,

    Thank you very much for your response July 5th. Much appreciated.

    You are quite right - over time I am finding what works for me and my family.

    Thanks,

    ROBYN

  76. hi all.
    i have found 15 hour fermentation bakery here in beenleigh.
    they have an ad on thier window ‘cut the chemical load’. they have a large variety.

    The Just Loaf. 4/15 main st. beenleigh…..07 3287 17 39

    Two brisbane organic online shops deliver to home.

    http://www.homefreshorganics.com.au/shop/
    delivery to beenleigh is $7.70. No minimum order.

    http://www.freshorganics.com.au/default.asp?m=1
    this site sells cleopatra’s bath milk.
    minimum order…$50.00 plus $8.50 delivery.

    I will not always have a $50.00 order ( i do not have a freezer large enough to stock pile milk) so if thier is anyone in my beenleigh area, would you like to share an order with me occasionally.

    regards ingrid

  77. Hey, Ingrid, my chickens will eat your bread, no questions asked!

  78. Ingrid,
    My first dozen attempts at bread-making, in the early 70’s, ranged from absolute disaster to just ok, so do persist.
    It will fulfil you one day. It’s difficult to advise by this medium, as I cannot see the flour you use, the mix, etc.
    Elasticity will be there if the wheat % of the dough is at least 70%. It also requires some aggressive kneading.
    The ginger/yeast mix is useless now, only make what you need each time.
    I hope you discover the way.
    Love,
    Clive

  79. hey anna,
    i wish i had some chickens to feed the bread to.
    it’s a bit hard to have them in a unit…..hopefully one day.
    ingrid

  80. Aggresive kneading!
    i really felt it last time when i did my bread. i guess i will really know about next time.
    ingrid

  81. Ingrid, coconut oil is liquid in the tropics where it comes from. It has a lot of good saturated fat so hardens in our climate. To use it in smoothies put the bottle in a bowl of boiling water to melt some before you use it. I place a mug with a couple of tablespoons of hardened coconut oil in it in a bowl of boiling water for speed. Because it’s saturated and so high in Vit E, it’s stable to heat again and again.

  82. hey anna,
    i have some more chook food.
    i followed Sally Fallons basic receipe for muffins, adding orange zest for flavour.
    when i mixed all ingredients together it was very runny. i thought, well different way of baking so must be ok.
    they did not rise. tasted yuck.
    try, try again. hate wasting food as i am on limited means on a pension.
    regards ingrid

  83. Gosh, Ingrid, I am so sorry you don’t live next door to us! I am in central Canada! Where exactly did you find this recipe? Is it on the internet somewhere or in a book?

    Muffins, to be muffins, have to follow certain rules. Otherwise, they just don’t work. They may be good, or they may be chicken (chook) food, but they will not be what we have always called “muffins”. I would really like to see that recipe. I am so sorry you have to waste ingredients this way. Maybe you have to use a bit of good old fashioned sugar! Muffins is not something that you have to eat 3 times a day; they are a pleasure food. Of course, I ought not to say anything until I see that recipe you used!

  84. Thanks all of you for your blogs! I’m 20yrs old, newly married (and experimenting a whole lot with cooking/fermenting!!)and very into Sally Fallon and all things mentioned in the above comments.
    Clive thankyou so much for everything you’ve written. You are a legend - a library of knowledge!
    I’d love to buy your book, ($38 right?) but a tad exy$$ at present. I would love it if you could send through your bread recipe (nourish@live.com.au) - it is very generous of you to offer - Thanks & much appreciated : )

  85. Clive,

    To ask you a non-bread question…
    I fermented my 1st lot of seemingly-okay vegies (last 2 were disaster-done all wrong). Ingredients: Organic cabbage, kale, few beetroot leaves + non-organic purple cabbage & parsnip. Acidophilus capsule opened and added to mixture.

    Now about a week and a half later everything seems okay (look and taste wise) except that the parsnips are ‘mushy’! I thought that fermented vegies were meant to stay crisp and am now very wary of my vegies and not sure what to do. They are sitting on the top shelf of my fridge with nowhere to go and nothing to do..

    Any pointers would be very helpful (from anyone)
    ~Amanda

  86. Hi Anna,
    I used the receipe from Sallly Fallons…Nourishing Traditions. (Weston Price)
    I do not know if I can post the receipe in here or if I have to send it to your email address.
    Am I allowed to put my email address in here???
    Regards Ingrid

  87. To answer a couple of the questions raised by Jen and others concerning Old Testament times. First, How did ancient peoples get predigested grains? Wheat was gathered and placed into bundles left in the field where some sprouting of the grains occured.Sprouting causes the grains to change into the nutrtious food they can become…. Second, how did ancient peoples remove the bran? Where was Gideon found by the angel? On the threshing floor threshing out the harvest. Grain was threshed by ancient peoples. Threshing removed not only the stalkes but would have broken the outer shell of the grains off as well.

  88. Ingrid, my email address is miso5000@hotmail.com and that would be very nice indeed if you would send me that muffin recipe so I could see what might have gone wrong! - Anna.

  89. 89. Naomi Snider
    Aug 23rd, 2008 at 12:16 am

    I, too would love to try your recipe. Would you add me to your (most likely) growing list of those requesting it? I, too, am financially challenged at the moment, but hope to purchase your book someday. I also have a couple of questions. 1. I have sieved my very finely home-milled wheat flour, and this took out some bran, but I can see there is still quite a bit of it left in the flour. Is this okay, or do I need to try to find a finer sieve? 2. What is your take on whole grains, properly soaked, being consumed by diabetics? I am trying to control mine with my diet, without any insulin or meds, but am constantly confused by conflicting opinions as to whether the grains/beans are beneficial for me. I am realizing you may not even have a take on this, depending on how much research you have done in this area, but thank you anyway for whatever advice you can give here. I have only just today discovered your site, after all I’ve read about wholemeal foods, and have to say this sure is a most different yet interesting angle! Really would love to try your bread! Thanks again, Naomi

  90. Dear Nourished Readers,
    I wish to make a significant correction to my Bread Dread article, and ask that you please spread the info around.
    When I wrote this chapter, over 3 years ago, I twice spoke to the head baker at SOL Bakery, to enquire as to the length of their fermentation process. His info shocked me at the time, which is why I double-checked.
    Now, a totally different scenario has come to light.
    Just why that baker gave me the wrong info originally I’ll never know. Perhaps he was protecting the recipe.
    However, Terry Dempsey, the owner of SOL, has just called me to inform me that SOL does in fact leave their doughs sit for 12-14 hours in the first stage, then it is mixed again, via a traditional European method, then sits for another 2-3 hours, before it is cut into portions, rested again for 2 hours, before being hand-moulded and set another hour before baking.
    So, SOL bread certainly meeets all the requirements, and MUCH MORE, of the long-fermented standards which I discuss. And their sourdough leaven culture is over 12 years old!
    Please be assured that SOL breads are most definitely excellent.
    I apologize to SOL for any problems caused them.
    If I had have had this info originally, it would never have been printed.
    Clive Lawler

  91. Thanks Clive for the clear up and thanks heaps to Terry Dempsey and the Sol Breads crew who do such a great job.

  92. Dear ones,
    And just now a phone call from Goanna Bakery, also giving testimony that their ferment times are similar to SOL. Again, as with SOL, I got my published info from their head baker TWICE, and again it is proven wrong.
    I apologize unreservedly to Goanna for the error, albeit based upon info from their own staff.
    Please be assured that both SOL and Goanna ARE indeed doing the right thing by long ferment times, and no-one is more pleased about that than myself.
    Clive Lawler

  93. SUCCESS…YES !
    My muffins are fantastic. I used two cups flour, not three as I did not want to waste ingredients if it was a know show. I used less liquid in sally’s muffin receipe. I used ½ kefir and ½ yoghurt. I used just enough to moisten all ingredients into a ball.
    24 hrs later I removed the lid and a DOUBLE TAKE. The mix had risen and was sort of fluffy. That kefir really zapped the flour.
    I was no longer concerned about it turning out all right. With the foamy risen flour I knew I had a winner. From then I just concocted as I went along…ala natural sally.

    I decided to do what sally does in other receipes and cream butter and sugar. I started creaming…the hand mixed died **!!**, and then I realized I was mixing the rapadura (1/2 cup) with the egg and not with the butter.

    I cut up butter ( 3 rounded tablsp) into small pieces and bashed it around the egg mix till I had tiny little lumps of butter visible. I then added 3 tsp maple syrup, 1 tsp vanilla essence…..natural of course, and two tsp orange oil for flavour. I wanted them orange tasting. 2 x well rounded tsp bicarb-soda (baking soda).

    I added egg mix to the flour mix. Took some effort, but got there.

    I put into jumbo muffin pans, then oven for thirty minutes, and boy did they rise. I was so exited.

    When cool I ate one and though soft, light, but funny taste. I realize now the kefir and different sugars are more robust than conventional muffins. After third bite I was hooked.

    I have been consuming gallons of kefir and yoghurt, so the taste was more in keeping with what I had become used to. I will use ginger next time, as I think the muffin taste will complement it.

  94. Clive,
    how exactly do you make your fermented peanut butter? thanks.

  95. Carolyn,
    In a solution of good water, salt to taste, plus a splash of culture, either a probiotic drink or some yoghurt, soak raw, organic peanuts for 6 hours. Then drain water off, dry the peanuts a little with thick paper towel, then dehydrate in an oven at lowest possible temp, only thin layers in each tray. Chock the oven door slightly open until there’s no more surface moisture on the peanuts. Then close oven door and slow-bake at same minimum temp overnite. If you have a dehydrator, all the better.
    If the oven trays are too hot to touch, then the temp is too hot to leave overnite, so you’ll just have to monitor progress and remove when the peanuts are crisp and crunchy.
    Then place peanuts in a slow grinder = fermented peanut butter. Jar, fridge.
    Clive

  96. hello clive.
    question…re; fermenting flour..
    will adding boiling water to flour then fermenting stop the pytates etc. from being eradicated?
    i ask this in relation to a flat bread ‘roti’ receipe i was taught, that i wish to NT up…
    Also, does coconut flour need fermenting..
    thankyou ingrid

  97. I can’t find Clive’s bread recipe, am I missing something? (Or is it only found in his book?)

    Thanks,
    Kelly
    http://www.kellythekitchenkop.com

  98. I really enjoyed reading your site and wanted to know how i can ask questions too. Thanks

  99. I like Kelly, am scouring ths site for the bread recipe but can not find it?

  100. I would love to try your sourdough bread recipe as well, would you be so kind as to email this to me.
    Thanks heaps

  101. Hi Clive,
    Just read as much of your info above as I could in 1/2 an hour. If I purchase a modern day bread maker can I make bread myself that would qualify as healthy for my family???

  102. I would love to believe this, but it seems to be an opinion of the minority. Many people who read articles on the internet (like this) think because it contains some quasi-scientific terms this person is talking pure fact. Anyone who has been to school (even at just secondary level) and been brifely introduced to referencing would have noticed this article lacks any form of it. Referencing is a key feature in acknowledging the sources of where the facts came from, and without references, there is no way to be sure that what is being relayed isn’t just someone’s OPINION, which is what I think is happening here. The infomation is also very anecdotal, as it has origins within the author’s family history, which also adds greatly to the prejudice of the writing.

    Furthermore, if this were true, why would many highly qualified and experienced DOCTORS, nutritions and dieticians be agreeably advising us that the best possible diet should contain wholegrains and wholemeals? This is the first I have ever heard that wholemeals are anything but complementary to our health, and it doesn’t suprise me that it has appeared in some opinionated, unreferenced article on the web. For me (or anyone) to even consider what is being written here as even resembling some sort of truth, the author should have at least acknowledged her educated background (which I, very biasedly of course, take to be extremely limited in this area, but I will be quick to apologise profusely if I am wrong!). If you do not have the relevant qualifications or fact-based knowledge, you should not be allowed to be making such misleading statements.

    Yes, a lot of it sounds true, and I do not hesitiate to believe that the light shed on the reduced time in the fermenting process is partly to blame for everybody jumping on the coeliac bandwagon. However, as there is (not as yet) any hard and fast evidence AGAINST wholegrains (as this is definietly NOT hard and fast) this article cannot automatically be taken for fact.

    People come on the internet for quick-fix solutions, and articles like this seem very believable and may very well cause someone to come to their own diagnosis. Before cutting out any essentail foodgroup (especially if considering switching wholegrains and brown, unprocessed wheat for WHITE!) one should consult a doctor or nutritionist. Such important advice should not come from someone with a screen name of “incognito”, who appears to be SELLING recipies or something similar.

  103. To Naomi Snider re. comment on Aug 23rd, 2008 at 12:16 am

    “What is your take on whole grains, properly soaked, being consumed by diabetics? I am trying to control mine with my diet, without any insulin or meds, but am constantly confused by conflicting opinions as to whether the grains/beans are beneficial for me.”

    Naomi, I had gestational diabetes some time ago. At that time, I found that split pea soup was something that did not raise my blood sugar level too high (YAY! something I could eat until I was full). However, my blood sugar level did not go down as fast as it usually did after eating other food, so it seems it was digested slowly. My instructions were that 2 hours after a meal, my blood sugar had to be below 7.0, and blood sugar level upon rising in the morning had to be low (mine was generally around 5.1 to 5.3 on rising, which was ok). Split pea soup obeyed the instructions. At the time, I did not know about the long fermentation times necessary for cooking such things, so I probably did not soak long enough or cook slow enough. I mentioned my experience to the person responsible for telling me what food I could eat (forgotten her proper title—food nutritionist, maybe), and she was not surprised about the blood sugar level taking a long time to go down (although I repeat, it was not “too high” in the first place, just in the higher end of the normal range) and did not say anything was wrong with eating the soup. Hope this helps.

    Yvonne

  104. Ellie,

    I reply to your mail, because I asked similar questions a while ago. I used to eat brown rice and wholemeal bread even though I instinctively felt that it wasn’t right. Then I did quite a bit of research and now I happily eat white rice and white bread (sourdough of course). I included my comments interspersed in your mail.

    E: I would love to believe this, but it seems to be an opinion of the minority.

    B: If you really want to believe something that is unconventional then I advice you stop believing that the validity of an argument is determined by the number of people who promote it. Once upon a time, most people believed that the earth was flat and not moving…

    E: Many people who read articles on the internet (like this) think because it contains some quasi-scientific terms this person is talking pure fact. Anyone who has been to school (even at just secondary level) and been brifely introduced to referencing would have noticed this article lacks any form of it. Referencing is a key feature in acknowledging the sources of where the facts came from, and without references, there is no way to be sure that what is being relayed isn’t just someone’s OPINION, which is what I think is happening here. The infomation is also very anecdotal, as it has origins within the author’s family history, which also adds greatly to the prejudice of the writing.

    B: I agree that Clive’s (Incognito’s) article is ‘limited’ in that it lacks references. Nevertheless, it (with its “quasi-scientific terms”) does an excellent job to get people THINK and prompt them to do further research if they are the type of people who need scientific data to be convinced. I’m one of those people, and I spent number of hours searching scientific databases to find articles on the issue of white vs. wholemeal bread. Search and you will find! (Even if it is only the opinion of the minority). If you prefer scientific writing style, then I can recommend a relatively old book (1956) to you by R.A. McCance and E.M. Widdowson titled “Breads white and brown: their place in thought and social history. From the cover: “ The book is controversial, is most interestingly written and is particularly well referenced and indexed. The authors themselves avoid prejudice and present the facts impartially.” The book has 720 references by the way, and the authors also report their own experiment on the nutritional value of white vs. wholemeal bread. The book is not published anymore so you can only buy it second hand form an antique book store. Clive, I can recommend this book to you as well if you ever feel the need to flesh your book up with references (not that I think it is necessary). The authors also published a short version of their book as an article (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13243690) which you can download if you have access to relevant databases.

    E: Furthermore, if this were true, why would many highly qualified and experienced DOCTORS, nutritions and dieticians be agreeably advising us that the best possible diet should contain wholegrains and wholemeals?

    B: To answer this question let me quote from the above mentioned article:
    “It is of course quite possible that little attention will be paid to these experiments of ours until we are all dead and buried…The herd instinct ‘gives widely held believes a spurious validity irrespective of whether or not they are founded on real evidence’ (Beveridge, 1950). Anything which threatens to make an adult chance his beliefs, particularly if he expressed them openly, is disturbing for him and …[he] will react to these results by attacking the evidence as best as they can or by neglecting it, so escape from its disturbing effects.”

    E: This is the first I have ever heard that wholemeals are anything but complementary to our health, and it doesn’t suprise me that it has appeared in some opinionated, unreferenced article on the web. For me (or anyone) to even consider what is being written here as even resembling some sort of truth, the author should have at least acknowledged her educated background (which I, very biasedly of course, take to be extremely limited in this area, but I will be quick to apologise profusely if I am wrong!). If you do not have the relevant qualifications or fact-based knowledge, you should not be allowed to be making such misleading statements.

    B: I think you give too much credit to the so called ‘experts’ or doctors. I recommend you read a book by R.S. Mendelson titled “Confessions of a medical heretic”. Sorry for referring you to books instead of summarizing their argument but I’ve recently started to limit my time spent in front of my computer.

    E: Yes, a lot of it sounds true, and I do not hesitiate to believe that the light shed on the reduced time in the fermenting process is partly to blame for everybody jumping on the coeliac bandwagon. However, as there is (not as yet) any hard and fast evidence AGAINST wholegrains (as this is definietly NOT hard and fast) this article cannot automatically be taken for fact.

    B: Search and you will find!

    E: People come on the internet for quick-fix solutions, and articles like this seem very believable and may very well cause someone to come to their own diagnosis. Before cutting out any essentail foodgroup (especially if considering switching wholegrains and brown, unprocessed wheat for WHITE!) one should consult a doctor or nutritionist. Such important advice should not come from someone with a screen name of “incognito”, who appears to be SELLING recipies or something similar.

    B: I agree that some information on the internet can be detrimental to people, but I believe that Clive’s (Incognito’s) article is not one of them. As for the screen name “incognito” – I agree, it kind of gives off some negative vibes. It implies that the author is concealing his identity and not taking responsibility for what he says. It is a bit like me using the letter ‘b’ instead of Bettina :0)

  105. Where can I get this bread recipe from? Is it only in the book?

  106. Hey gang: Clive is the real thing, a modern-day practical genius.

    If for some reason you don’t want to use baker’s yeast or want that nice sourdough flavor, you can make real digestible sourdough bread too.

    I humbly submit my own recipe for sourdough: http://www.ehow.com/how_5018402_make-bread-really-trying-kneading.html

    The biggest mistake we make in bread making is making it too complicated and then becoming intimidated. Humans have done this daily for thousands of years! It is and should be EASY.

    Give it a try, its the only way to learn.

    EasyReader

  107. 108. Needing a change
    Jan 19th, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Clive, I am desperately trying to find your book. I live in the U.S. and I have not been able to find it, not online or anywhere. How can I obtain it, I am desperately wanting to read it. I have been so irritated by the recent trend of folks being wheat or gluten intolerant. I have a child who I am trying to recover from autism, and it is said that autistic children fare best on a gluten free-casein free diet. So, even more folks who can’t tolerate wheat. Ugh! It makes no sense. I set out to find something that made sense and do you ever make all the sense in the world. I immediately emailed this link to friends and family! Please tell me how to get your book!
    Thank you
    Needing a change

  108. 109. Needing a change
    Jan 21st, 2010 at 5:24 am

    Clive, I am also curious to know what your take is on slow cooking in a crock pot.

  109. Wow! A little education I didn’t have before. I’m new to this gluten-wheat allergy thing, but it does make sense. I’ve been making my own bread for a while now and adding in the extra gluten and yeast. I love my bread, but am realizing my belly does not. So, now my question- where do I go to find this kind of bread or better recipies where I live?

  110. I hate to see people having to limit their diets for the rest of their lives. My doctor told me that I would just have to stay away from the food I was allergic to. I saw a testimonial on http://www.holisticallergytreatment.com by a man named Roger who claims that one computerized treatment fixed his celiac sprue problem. Check it out and let me know if it works for you. I did use treatments from this site for food allergies and for seasonal pollen allergies with great success.

  111. Dear Clive,

    Please could you email me your bread recipe.

    Thank you

  112. It’s pretty cool how many people are starting to become aware of gluten intolerance and celiac disease. It’s sites like this that really help! I’ve noticed online that some people use rice flour to bake gluten free bread but does it taste the same? I’ve simply avoided most grains but wouldn’t mind the odd sandwich for lunch lol

    Thanks for the post!

  113. If a bread loaf’s ingredients contain psyllium husks, that would be a bad thing, I’m guessing? There is a great sourdough bread I know of, that is sold widely, and it is prepared how it should be; but that is the only questionable thing in it, which I was wondering about, the first time I read the ingredients.

    I thought I might as well ask about this now, while I’m here, since this topic is on bread.
    If you have an answer to my question Clive, I would very much appreciate your reply.

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